Headgear

[Ernie]

Tma suck because they only have demo power , meaning they need to assume a stance or posture , set the distance and hit a stationary target . this is dead power [show power ]
boxers or any other actual fighting art has to hit a target in motion while they are also in motion , this is functional power [ real world ]

when your hitting some thing in motion the chances of an off angle , misjudged distance , and so on can cause you to injure your wrist/hand so you need protection

Tma artist usually hit fixed objects so they have the luxury talking all the imaginary $hit they want , or there sparring with each other two dead guys trying to set the same dead distance to do the same dead technique , this also is a false sense of power

any one that has really trained to hit and be hit will not argue the need for some training protection , those that live in imaginary fantasy fu worlds have all kinds of Sifu says programmed responses

[Edmund]

I'm all for protective gear.

I just don't think that breaking your hands frequently is a good selling point for boxing.

As it is some TMA do things pretty **** hard without gear and get injuries as well. Most of the traditional karate styles have a wonderful time kicking and punching the hell out of each other and going home injured. A bit of protective gear wouldn't go astray.

[lawrenceofidaho]

while boxers (who wrap & glove their hands) still seem to injure them rather frequently?

Perhaps a poor choice of words on my part. -A more accurate description would be; "injure them more frequently than TMA people."

If you're wrapped properly, wear quality gloves for training, have good coaching, and are following a sound nutritional program (with adequete amounts of minerals in your diet), your chances for hand injury as a boxer will be minimal.

Boxing punches are also sound techniques when employed as open handed palm strikes. A boxer will still carry the powerful mechanics behind his attacks if he chooses to use open hands for street self defense. (Although he loses about 2" of range, and must consciously adjust for this.)

I'm not trying to "sell" boxing here, just point out that boxers are doing some things right to be able to generate such powerful strikes, and that the majority of TMA people could learn something by studying the ways in which a boxer moves and executes techniques.

-Lawrence

[WingChunTao]

[QUOTE=lawrenceofidaho]

Q: Why are many TMA practicioners able punch trees (and other hard, solid objects) and not hurt their hands, while boxers (who wrap & glove their hands) still seem to injure them rather frequently?

A: Most TMA practicioners cannot hit nearly as hard as boxers.

Q: Why do many TMA guys spar without headgear, while boxers seem to always wear headgear when they spar?

A: Most TMA practicioners cannot hit nearly as hard as boxers.

TMA--Us TMA's would like to hear your premises that led you to believe such a discovery. A statement like that needs clarification/evidence to back it up.

[Edmund]

I'm not trying to "sell" boxing here, just point out that boxers are doing some things right to be able to generate such powerful strikes, and that the majority of TMA people could learn something by studying the ways in which a boxer moves and executes techniques.

True. A point for a different thread perhaps.

As for headgear, I favour the open faced boxing style over face cages. The face cage products I've seen first hand haven't been particularly well implemented. They're literally a pain in the neck. Having experimented with taking punches using one particular face cage, I would have rather gotten my nose busted.

[lawrenceofidaho]

[QUOTE=WingChunTao]

Q: Why are many TMA practicioners able punch trees (and other hard, solid objects) and not hurt their hands, while boxers (who wrap & glove their hands) still seem to injure them rather frequently?

A: Most TMA practicioners cannot hit nearly as hard as boxers.

Q: Why do many TMA guys spar without headgear, while boxers seem to always wear headgear when they spar?

A: Most TMA practicioners cannot hit nearly as hard as boxers.

TMA--Us TMA's would like to hear your premises that led you to believe such a discovery. A statement like that needs clarification/evidence to back it up.

Wing Chun Tao,

I train in Wing Chun (TMA) and love it too. -I'm just making a general comment about schools that do not use protective gear (hence the use of the qualifier; most, in my statements above that you refer to).

In post #28 of this thread, I also pointed out that I would like to be able to provide some evidence of this, -if only I had access to one of those devices that Andrew Nerlich had at his school down under;

This might not be too hard to validate, if I could only get my hands on one of those power-measuring things that Andrew N. was talking about on another [front kick?] thread.......

As I do not have access to one of those gadgets, I only can only offer my opinion based on my experiences with folks from both backgrounds...... -Compare two individuals, one from an average TMA school, and one from an average boxing club, both of relatively equal size, and experience levels (i.e. -training time under their belt), and nine times out of ten, the boxer will be the harder puncher (sometimes by a significant margin). -I am quite certain that those on the forum who have trained for any length of time with boxers (or even some good kickboxers), will agree that this is generally true.

-Why?? -Not because boxing is a "superior art", but because boxers train from day one with such an emphasis on mechanics and getting their bodyweight behind every punch, and because they need power when they are sparring to keep an aggressive opponent from steamrolling over them (unlike TMA "point sparring" games where a potentially weak strike, and a potentially powerful strike are considered equally significant according to the rules).

A Wing Chun person who trains with good mechanics and contact sparring in their regimin will be a force to be reckoned with. -But when I say mechanics, I mean to say; sound, scientifically validated mechanics as opposed to simply throwing around a couple of vague, esoteric foreign terms and claiming that this is where your "power" comes from. (It's the schools like that, who don't seem to need headgear when they spar, -probably since so few of them are capable of throwing a damaging punch.)

-Lawrence

[KPM]

True. A point for a different thread perhaps.

As for headgear, I favour the open faced boxing style over face cages. The face cage products I've seen first hand haven't been particularly well implemented. They're literally a pain in the neck. Having experimented with taking punches using one particular face cage, I would have rather gotten my nose busted.

We use headgear with the acrylic face cages and they work just fine for us. They do fog a little, but mostly at the lower half. No neck pain that I've noticed. We went for the face cages over the open face headgear because we also do some weapons sparring.

Keith

[KPM]

[
A Wing Chun person who trains with good mechanics and contact sparring in their regimin will be a force to be reckoned with. -But when I say mechanics, I mean to say; sound, scientifically validated mechanics as opposed to simply throwing around a couple of vague, esoteric foreign terms and claiming that this is where your "power" comes from. (It's the schools like that, who don't seem to need headgear when they spar, -probably since so few of them are capable of throwing a damaging punch.)

-Lawrence

--Very true...at least from my experience! And let me say that I've been taking another look at Alan Orr's series of videos..."Body Structure Sparring"....that I got awhile back and am more impressed each time that I watch them. He shows very good biomechanics using the kua and hitting hard with WCK structure.

Keith

[Ultimatewingchun]

For those of you who've never seen them...on page 20 of the original VIDEO FOOTAGE thread (about 8 months ago)...there's a post by Phil Redmond entitled: VICTOR'S CONTRIBUTION...there are some vids there of some sparring between myself and one of my students (Myron Young) wherein we use a metal face cage attached to our helmets...with very thin semi-fingerless gloves...very safe...full power and close to full power shots to the head and face can be thrown with only shock waves being felt...

the problem is that they limit the use of palm strikes (in fact on one of the vids you can see me shaking out my left hand and fingers after "I forgot" and landed a palm strike flush on the metal bars)...and the headgear with this type of face cage doesn't give a completely true sense of distance because when you land a punch on the face cage you're hand is probably still close to about 3 inches away form your opponent's face...(unless of course you had plenty of follow through and snapped his head back) ...

and they do take away some more realism because, even though those shock waves DO hurt..you always know in the back of your mind that you won't ever suffer a jolt right on your nose, mouth, eyes, etc....

ALL THIS SAID...

I still believe that this is excellent headgear because you CAN throw full power head and face shots (which DOES bring some sense of realism to your sparring) - and as Lawrence said - this type of realism is invaluable training as it requires power development on your strikes against an opponent who's coming in to blast you for real...which rarely happens when you spar without equipment and without the understanding that full power shots to the head and face are in play.

As to the Mexican style headgear - we sometimes use those with slightly bigger gloves when we spar so that palm strikes and the like can be used from up close and personal (such as in the clinch - where a protruding metal face cage does interfere with realism even more)...but we still try to keep some safety by agreeing in advance that the power should never reach a full 100% (perhaps about 70-80%)...since your nose can be hit and flattened a bit - and your eyes are a bit more exposed.

[lawrenceofidaho]

We use headgear with the acrylic face cages and they work just fine for us. They do fog a little, but mostly at the lower half. No neck pain that I've noticed. We went for the face cages over the open face headgear because we also do some weapons sparring.

Keith

To be clear, I use metal cage "street hockey" headgear when weapons sparring, and mexican style boxing headgear when empty hand sparring. And that is what I'd also recommend to others.

Depends on the heaviness of the weapons being employed in sparring, but if you're only use sparring gear made for hand-to-hand combat (or simple fencing masks), you may be risking concussion and brain injury. -Although for some this is an acceptable risk as they wish to approach the cutting edge of training realism. (e.g. - Dog Brothers)

Note: IMO, if you are not fighting at a Dog Brother's level of realism when using weapons, I do not think you have much credibility when criticizing their assertions about what combat is like at that level. (When a Dog Brother talks about stick fighting and what they've learned, I damm well listen. -I do not think I have ever been steered wrong by their combat-proven advice.)

-Lawrence

[Edmund]

In post #28 of this thread, I also pointed out that I would like to be able to provide some evidence of this, -if only I had access to one of those devices that Andrew Nerlich had at his school down under;

As an aside, I've seen a Discovery Channel documentary where some TMA karate guys used a similar device to measure their punches and kicks vs. a boxer's. It was a sheet of sensors that could be stuck to any surface - bags, wooden boards, etc.

Their punches were actually a little bit more than a boxer. However they had
1) no gloves on.
2) a stationary target.
3) all the time in the world to set themselves.

So the experiment was not particularly enlightening.

[Phil Redmond]

For those of you who've never seen them...on page 20 of the original VIDEO FOOTAGE thread (about 8 months ago)...there's a post by Phil Redmond entitled: VICTOR'S CONTRIBUTION...there are some vids there of some sparring between myself and one of my students (Myron Young) . . . .

Victor, you'll have to re-send me those videos. I was using a student's ftp addy from his job for those vids. He no longer works for the company. I now have my own ftp addy
Phil

[lawrenceofidaho]

Their punches were actually a little bit more than a boxer. However they had
1) no gloves on.
2) a stationary target.
3) all the time in the world to set themselves.

So the experiment was not particularly enlightening.

It still surprises me they did as well as they did, -even if it was against a dead target.......

Were the guys of equal size and experience levels (training time)?

-Lawrence

[Edmund]

It still surprises me they did as well as they did, -even if it was against a dead target.......

Were the guys of equal size and experience levels (training time)?

-Lawrence

Not sure of the exact size or experience.

They were not just some schlub karateka. They were more than just hobbyists and competed in karate forms/sparring events and did stuff in movie/tv stuntwork.

They basically were full time sportsmen and were athletically very capable. They do the type of karate comps that ESPN sometimes shows: Screaming like you just got castrated, lots of flashy moves, smashing through a couple of bricks and then doing a standing full somersault to finish with a bow. They showed some continous sparring comps with a lot of protective gear and it wasn't anything particularly great. Like TKD with punches to the face allowed possibly.

For the experiment, they were basically doing the same mechanics as a boxing punch but with their bare fists so it really didn't mean a thing.

[anerlich]

Samson needs no headgear.

Headgear protects the brain, and Samson, well, when you've got nothing you've got nothing to lose.