Southern CMA and MMA

[brothernumber9]

More and more forum members are making plays into what most consider MMA arenas; submission wrestling, jiu jitsu, catch, grappling, etc as well as additional stand ups; Muy Thai/Khmer boxing, Bando, Silat, etc.

Just the same, some or maybe even half or more of them are using it to supplement their base in CMA and not to depose it. It is evident that very few CMA really address the ground game outside of a few escapes, sweeps, and ideas to stand back up. some don't do it at all.

Pride in the systems we learn are great, but we shouldn't blind ourselves to our chosen styles' weaknesses and even moreso our own personal weaknesses. Most people who train southern CMA will eventually spar to at least a continuous contact or full contact degree. But how many classes try to drill using the concepts and techniques against MMA type of fighters? more specifically against punches mixed with, lead by, or followed with a shoot?

I feel the time of ignoring such arguments has passed, and southern CMA styles NEED to address and incorporate such training into their regimens to validate the learning for those who beleive that what they are learning is enough to prevail against such fighters. Keep in mind I am not saying southern CMA schools need to integrate BJJ and groundfighting into their styles, but rather to train actively against it using what they already have. If they find they don't have it then at least it will be known by the students and they won't be misled into thinking otherwise.

[David Jamieson]

hear hear.

[Fu-Pow]

Basically...in most Chinese martial arts if you go to the ground it is viewed that you have lost already. Better say your prayers and await whatever punishment is coming your way.

One of the few exceptions to that is "Dog" boxing. And if you know anything about Chinese culture, you know the "esteemed" position that dogs hold.

[Ben Gash]

As my Sifu once said to me...... "I was doing kung fu groundfighting in 1974" !
Public perception of what martial arts is all about seems to have adversely affected the way people trained from the mid '80s on. This seems to have been a problem across the martial arts world, culminating in the TKD boom in the early nineties, which is why Royce Gracie proved such a wake up call. Now you can argue at length about the value and meaning of the early UFCs, but they did change the way we approach martial arts, and shocked them out of something of a rut. Combat was back in, close and dirty were the order of the day, and really as southern CMA practitioners, close and dirty should be what we're good at.
While there is value to the yeah, but we can use claws and eye gouges on the ground (and the BJJ responses to this argument being as blinkered as a TKD guy saying "yeah, I can roll on the ground too"), many schools never practice these sorts of techniques beyond forms and VERY safe and structured partner work. Bridgeing and takedowns have become lost arts in many Western Kwoons, and sticky hands reduced to the level of a game.
The bottom line is that you should be practising to avoid shoots anyway. How many forms contain a rapid step back into bow stance? This is the standard San Shou defence against a single leg takedown, but how many Hung Gar Kwoons in the west are drilling this technique beyond forms or with partners?
We have lambasted sport Wushu schools for stripping away the combat of Kung Fu while we ourselves have been churning out bad kickboxers who know some nice forms!!!!!
Fortunately the post UFC hysteria seems to have died down somewhat now, and we are approaching a middle ground again where being a good all rounder with a solid set of basic skills is important. Personally I feel that this is where we should be heading in CMA. Forget TKD style linked kicking combinations, XMA style acrobatics and point-fighting strategies. We should concentrate on what we're good at, footwork, bridgeing, linking hands and feet, limb destruction, standing grappling, using the whole body and sensitivity. Once we have these skills solidly in place we should be able to apply them wherever we are, but importantly we must train for it.
Anyway, let's remember some of the great standup moments from the NHB golden age, such as Maurice Smith's beautiful KO of Conan Silveira with a roundhouse kick to the head in Extreme Fighting 3, or the Brazilian Vale Tudo match where Igor Vovchanchin KO'd Mark Kerr's guy with a knee to the face as he shot in for the opening attack

[meltdawn]

to fu pow ...however, there are more people out there who don't practice Chinese arts (both martial artists and non-martial artists) who might NOT consider that going to the ground means losing (in my opinion).

i think any style (not just southern Chinese) that's been developed deep enough should and will address fighting technique at all ranges, using all limbs, at all levels/positions. now i'm not dissing specializing, because even right down to the individual there are things that will or won't be practical, and it's always wise to capitalize on one's physical advantages and compensate for weaknesses. but i do believe that neglecting to study and practice counters against as many conceivable attacks as possible is limiting one's martial training, reducing "martial art" to "art".

[mantis108]

More and more forum members are making plays into what most consider MMA arenas; submission wrestling, jiu jitsu, catch, grappling, etc as well as additional stand ups; Muy Thai/Khmer boxing, Bando, Silat, etc.

I believe NHB and UFC type of sports venues have helped to popularize the MMA format which in certain ways reflects the essence of street fighting sans the dirty and ugly stuff. If anyone need to see street fighting on the streets of the states, get a hold of a copy of Bum Fights or other titles like Scraps that's done by the production company by the same name. Seeing is believing. Know thy enemy and know thy self.

Just the same, some or maybe even half or more of them are using it to supplement their base in CMA and not to depose it. It is evident that very few CMA really address the ground game outside of a few escapes, sweeps, and ideas to stand back up. some don't do it at all.

I see understanding and learning for that matter of MMA is a pragmatic approach to fighting. Theorizing (not that is not important) too much is one of the major hurddles in CMA.

Pride in the systems we learn are great, but we shouldn't blind ourselves to our chosen styles' weaknesses and even moreso our own personal weaknesses. Most people who train southern CMA will eventually spar to at least a continuous contact or full contact degree. But how many classes try to drill using the concepts and techniques against MMA type of fighters? more specifically against punches mixed with, lead by, or followed with a shoot?

TCMA especially southern TCMA has been unable to discern the quest for the knowledge of self (the training) and application situation which I would call "broken arrow" (fighting). Most style claims to address the broken arrow situation but in reality they are trapped in the training mind set (one punch one kill and be mesmerized by that "spirituality" or beauty). How many times did the novices not pause in awe that they have successfully delivered a perfect technique? Broken arrow is about aliveness. Traditionalists have to figure that out for themselves first the difference between the two.

I feel the time of ignoring such arguments has passed, and southern CMA styles NEED to address and incorporate such training into their regimens to validate the learning for those who beleive that what they are learning is enough to prevail against such fighters. Keep in mind I am not saying southern CMA schools need to integrate BJJ and groundfighting into their styles, but rather to train actively against it using what they already have. If they find they don't have it then at least it will be known by the students and they won't be misled into thinking otherwise.

I totally agreed. Unfortunately, pride as you mentioned and the notion of filial piety have stopped most southern CMA folks from thinking out of the box (pun intended) and evolving or growing. In the Northern American market, Kung Fu were to do well then it would need to know how to handle MMA. It would be impossible IMHO not to understand the founding theories, methodologies, strategies, tactics and techniques that made MMA successful but simple hope to best it with blind faith in our systems. So...

But then I suppose to each their own.

Mantis108

[Fu-Pow]

Most style claims to address the broken arrow situation but in reality they are trapped in the training mind set (one punch one kill and be mesmerized by that "spirituality" or beauty).

Uh..maybe in karate.

[Sow Choy]

Just in case you didnt know...

We are the Southern stylists and we have to lookout for ourselves... No offense, but there never will be a huge meeting of all the Southern masters to create a defense for groundfighting, most don't wanna be in the same room together... hahaha

As for this subject... All fighters learn some sort of basics... strikes, throws, locks, combos, etc... But through sparring we each find our own mistakes and improve on them... I am lucky, my sihing studien gracie ju-jitsu while younger in Brazil... So i played the ground game with him a long time ago and he tapped me out in about 15 seconds...

So I was impressed, a nice wake up call... It forced me to improve my defense on someone shooting in, and for my comfortability on the ground. I borrowed many techniques from jujitsu that he taught me, or from others that I sparred with or watching other fighters and also used my experience in CLF training and whatever else available to me...

From what I understand, many of our southern styles fought each other to improve... So the loser has to honestly ask himself "what do i need to do to beat this person?" and they do what is necessary... Right? Maybe I am way-off but I rather take care of business then worry if it doesnt fit my style... I wanna win, know what im saying... Again follow an individual who can lead you in the right direction...

Many masters know various techniques from several systems... why not jujitsu...?

As long as you dont drop on your back and do an armbar in your form I dont see it tainting your style really... Like taichi... so many do that as an additive...

To each his own then...

Joe

[brothernumber9]

all the replies so far pretty much agree on the matter. To each his/her own is fine, and many ppl on these boards have some sort of experience with what we're discussing, but we also know, that at large, that is not the norm. The vast majority of Sifu do not address the matter at all with their students.
Even worse there are far too many instructors out there telling their students that the techniques are in their forms and that they just need to "dig" them out.

I'm all for encouraging students to figure out applications on their own, but after the student has shown that they have thought possible or viable applications, the instructor should confirm or clarify the proper with the student. It has become painfully obvious how foolish some ideas of defenses have become that are perpetuated by too many Sifu and instructors, and I'm only speaking of southern styles eventhough it's virtually the same all over CMA.

You read people type things like "If they shoot, they'll just taste the knee of my horse stance", or " a solid pak sao or elbo to the back of the head and they'll be down for the count." Such replies show the inexperience primarily of that individual and often the person they learned from.

The theories and concepts most southern styles already have in place can be used or modified for take down defenses that SHOULD BE PRACTICED LIVE and resisting. I'm not even promoting for styles to adapt a ground game or techs on the ground. they would help, but at least get off ground zero and work on takedown defenses. I want to say more but I'll stop there.

[David Jamieson]

hear hear

[Infrazael]

Looks like I'm not alone in the SCMA community.

[mufty]

The big problem regarding this MMA phenomenom, is its all out of context with regards to a real life and death confrontation. It was the same when the free style martial arts competitions grew in the 1970's. The problem is misconception of situation.

In these early days, people were very good at high kicks, and the papers loved to diss the martial arts when a so called expert had a good kicking out side a night club.

In the ring or cage or on the mat, we tap out, and its over, in a real fight if you go to the ground, it over, your hospitalised, you cant tap out, and there aint no referee.

The only ground fighting techniques that I would consider practical are those that were taught to me by an ex military martial ats teacher, who had been there seen it and done that. These techniques consisted of getting up as quick as possible, using techniques that would make Freddy whinch, not allowed in the ring, cage, or on the mat.

These are my views on the subject.

O' and yep one punch one kill, works, been there seen that and done it .

I think we should all take a step back from the modernist/sporting view of todays martial arts, and start to look at the origional principles surrounding our beloved arts.

[TenTigers]

I teach Hung-Ga, and we incorperate ground n pound into everything we do. Why? Because that is what you will face. Bruce Lee died in '73. People grew up with Martial Arts. Jacky Chan has a cartoon show on Saturday mornings. Every kid has taken martial arts in one way or the other-whether it is in an intro class, a karate kid birthday party, a guest instructor at their phys ed class, or at any number of commercial schools-it is an industry. Everyone grew up with Chuck Norris, and anyone out there has seen kicks, and can kick-even with no skill, but they will kick.
Now there is UFC, Pride, K-1,NHB, you name it. BJJ is everywhere, and people watch it on pay per view-which means it's on their minds.Now it's not just the High School wrestlers and football jocks you need to watch out for-it's everybody. You'd better have a ground game.
I start my guys with takedowns, sweeps, throws, double leg takedowns, then onto single leg. Shoot, take'em down, and then mount, and ground n pound. Then I teach basic escape from the mount-for starters. Later on, reversals, and submissions. Not alot, just so they are comfortable and can freestyle. Later we will add more, but it is better to know a feww and do it well. Don't fear the man who knows a thousand techniques. Fear the man who knows one technique and has practiced it a thousand times.

[NeedsPractice]

Whats being talked about is a simple problem but its actually 2 problems

1- The southern chinese arts can get very complex and take alot of time to get really competent at. Just like bjj takes along time to get to black belt.
However for alot of people it may take along time if ever that they get good enough to really use the stuff as its really meant compared to other arts where time to application (skilled ) is shorter.
2- The teachers know this , and some of the teachers know that they probably arent that great themselves so they aren't going to encourage thier students to try "extra" things that the student may like and then in turn leave the school or question thier teacher.

So the student really has to know what they want and how they want to invest thier time. Its not a question of blind faith( or shouldnt be) but a question of do you wnat to cover all your basic bases ( ground, knife, striking) or just train and not worry about it?