Gou Lou Cai

[mantis108]

I concurred with Kevin. Great explanations, man! *2 thumbs way up* Gou Lou Cai can and should be applied with footwork (ie Tsun bu, Ti bu, Die bu, etc..). So the liberal or conceptual application of Gou Lou Cai with the leg or while standing up is really a mute point IMHO. Now if you were to apply that on the ground, then it definitely will need some investigating. But it can be done IME.

Regarding the 12 characters, the 7 star version is based off the Lao Wu Shou (5 old hands) of Tanglang and is more literal IMHO. The Taiji/Meihwa version is more subtle. The Lao Wu Shou goes under Feng Bi (sealing and closing) and can be expressed as a drill - Feng Shou.

Just some thoughts to share.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[seung ga faat]

Hello Oso,
These are the prime movements, ideas gleened from the observation/interpretation of the praying mantis-ape.
They can be applied to handwork, bodywork, legwork and footwork
as well as intent .
________
hashish
________
Lovely Wendie99

[Oso]

good point...hmmm, i think mental hooking would be what my old hung gar teacher would call 'drawing': pulling your opponent in against their will almost...setting them up through a suble use of movement, facial expression and 'intent'.

[Oso]

our basic drill is right hand on wrist, left hand on elbow, leave left hand on elbow (feng) and strike w/ right hand.

[Ou Ji]

So your left hand is pinning or sealing before you strike with the right? That's how I've generally seen it done.

So we started with Gou Lou Cai and migrated to Gou Lou Choy (or in Oso's case Gou Lou Crash). I'm still interested in the Cai or Plucking part of the sequence.

How is it performed with Cai? Especially considering Lou is pushing or sealing how does the plucking come about?

Oh, and Oso, any chance you can send me the clip that was sent to you?

[Oso]

So your left hand is pinning or sealing before you strike with the right? That's how I've generally seen it done.

in the basic drill, yes. or right hand sealing, left hand hitting if you're on the other side.

So we started with Gou Lou Cai and migrated to Gou Lou Choy (or in Oso's case Gou Lou Crash). I'm still interested in the Cai or Plucking part of the sequence.

choy or crash happens after the cai. so, for my favorite type of entry it would actually be gou-lou-cai-crash.

imo, the pluck is an offbalance...what happens after that depends on how they react to the pluck. your next technique will depend on if you actually pull them to you or they stiffen and resist the pluck. but, i've only been doing mantis for 2 years. so, anything I say could be a big misinterpretation.

How is it performed with Cai? Especially considering Lou is pushing or sealing how does the plucking come about?

hmmm, actually, the seal would happen after the cai as well

you punch w/ right
i intercept with my right (gou)
my right hand starts to grab (lou)
my left follows to catch elbow(lou)
i jerk hard on your arm to pull you forward(cai)

everything after that is not actually GLC.

if i then feng with my left hand at your elbow and hit you with a backfist then basically it's

gou
lou
cai
feng
bong

????

in our Little Four Hands, we do an intercept with the left hand against a left punch...

intercepting
grabbing
plucking...

all with the left hand as we flank step outside of the attacking arm with the left foot
and step in with the right foot and whack them in the head with the right fist.

the GLC in that move is very short, quick and one handed....everything else is just the follow up to the GLC having been effective in pulling them forward some.


Oh, and Oso, any chance you can send me the clip that was sent to you?

sure, send me an email and I'll bounce it to you. it's a .mov

[mantisben]

How is it performed with Cai? Especially considering Lou is pushing or sealing how does the plucking come about?

I believe Cai/Pluck is kind of like Yank/Jerk (A sharp quick pull). You can grab/lou an opponents hair and Cai/Yank their head into a fist, an object (wall/fence), or you can hook/Ou the back of your opponents neck and pull it into an elbow or a knee strike, like they do in Muay Tai.

[mantis108]

Head grabbing move in the old Quanpus are usually referred to as Zhua Fa (snatching hair) or La Fa (pulling hair). This is to restrict/immobilizing the head movement or going in for the miming. It is more a pluck or Cai as you would have to grab solid and yank or pull to disturb his balance as well.

In MMA terms, a single neck tie (with or without the single under hook) or a double neck tie (plum?) a la Muay Thai, could be considered as Lou. But there is no actual term used for that. A single under hook to the shoulder could be consider as a Lou but you will not see this in any of the Quanpu or even in most Tanglang quan. However, theorectically speaking from a mantis perspective it is a Lou IMHO.

Double under hook/body lock as in bear hug is also Lou. It is double Lou or Shuang Lou to be precise. This is found as the opponent comes from behind and uses a rear bear hug on "me" in the Quanpu of Cui Shou Shan (student of Song Zide). The counter to the move is called "Duo Zhi Jiao" which I believe is the same as CCK TCMP's Sau Fa move Jin Long Pan Chu (golden dragon coils around the pillar). BTW, this counter is common to most styles' self defense move. The fancy name is cool though.

BTW, I have just receive 2 clips form Kevin. I will check with him if it's okay to post them on my site as well.

Mantis108

[Oso]

cool comparisons.

the standard 'collar and elbow' tie up easily translates to mantis, imo.

as you hook into the neck, slam into it with the inside of the forearm/palm heel area of the hand and then hook and pull and pop back with some really short waist jing to daze them real good like

[mantisben]

...to grab solid and yank or pull to disturb his balance...

To me, this is precisely how "Cai" or "Pluck" is used. I didn't word it like you did in the quote above, but this is practically letter-for-letter how I'd define it, personally.

Whether you "grab solid and yank" the hair, neck, fist-full-of-skin (Pinch (thanks Oso)), arm, elbow, leg, or clothing. Whether you "grab solid and yank" downwards, or to the side, the "Yank", in my definition, is "Cai".

Not a showstopper, but very effective when applied at the right time.

[Oso]

funny story from last night

we were working the armbar from the second road of bung bu (stepping back into the horse, pulling down on the wrist w/ rear hand and up at elbow w/ fore arm.)

we were doing it as a live drill w/ full both sides attempting to get the pull and bar with 100% resistance.

did that for a while, round robin like, then it kinda devolved into just general chin na anything goes and a student of mine tried the pinch on me...ineffectively...so, I had to show how it should be done

[-N-]

To me, this is precisely how "Cai" or "Pluck" is used. I didn't word it like you did in the quote above, but this is practically letter-for-letter how I'd define it, personally.

For us, cai is not when you initially hook. It is when you "take" your opponent with the strike in combination with ou and lou.

N.

[Oso]

-N-

so, you guys pluck and strike at the same time? pulling w/ one hand while striking with the other?

[MightyB]

For us, cai is not when you initially hook. It is when you "take" your opponent with the strike in combination with ou and lou.

N.

I've always assumed that ou lou choi is the same as choi sum sau in that you du sau + foom sau + then strike all in one motion.

[-N-]

I've always assumed that ou lou choi is the same as choi sum sau in that you du sau + foom sau + then strike all in one motion.

Yes, same for us, MightyB. All one count. Common for 3 counts among non WHF though. So I use the phrase "initially hook" when trying to explain to non WHF.

N.