That Yip Man pic with the Iron Rings

[Mr Punch]

Hi Mat,

I expressed my opinion on the images and respect other's opinion on the matter. Lol at the thought I issue edicts. I'm a WC student like most ppl here and would prefer to discuss WC with open minded people sans the politics, trolling and other diversions.

/Marcus

With respect, it doesn't look like you want to discuss anything.

I wasn't trolling, I don't get involved with politics and I am obviously open minded otherwise I would have dismissed your first post (which I obviously disagree with intensely, although I can understand and have some respect for your position) with vitriol and ad hominem. There was none. I was genuinely interested in your answer to my points, which I feel are valid and important to us as martial artists and representatives of traditional martial arts in a modern ever-changing world... as valid indeed as your criticism.

You are obviously not open-minded enough to enter into a discussion with somebody whose opinion differs from yours, which is what I suspected having seen you online several times, without deigning to answer, hence the 'edict' joke.

Fair enough, now I know what kind of person you are, I won't bother you any further with legitimate issues!

[Mr Punch]

Incidentally, thanks to the many people who have PMed with their support in this issue. I wasn't looking to start a storm, just wanting to hear from the people who hold this somewhat quaint world view and want to enforce it on others, so I was quite surprised when I got so many messages supporting my POV.

Strangely, neither the people who agree with Mr Pasram, nor the people who agree with me have thought to respond in public on the thread.

While I live in Japan so I understand this attitude I sometimes think it's time we moved on from this boys whispering in the locker-rooms kind of adulatory attitude and enjoyed some kind of adult debate (ironically given the obvious seed of this thread!).

Sigh. I'll leave it here in the safe hands of the thought police.

[marcus_pasram]

You are obviously not open-minded enough to enter into a discussion with somebody whose opinion differs from yours, which is what I suspected having seen you online several times, without deigning to answer, hence the 'edict' joke.

Fair enough, now I know what kind of person you are, I won't bother you any further with legitimate issues!

... oh well. *shrug*

Incidentally, thanks to the many people who have PMed with their support in this issue. I wasn't looking to start a storm, just wanting to hear from the people who hold this somewhat quaint world view and want to enforce it on others, so I was quite surprised when I got so many messages supporting my POV.

Strangely, neither the people who agree with Mr Pasram, nor the people who agree with me have thought to respond in public on the thread.

While I live in Japan so I understand this attitude I sometimes think it's time we moved on from this boys whispering in the locker-rooms kind of adulatory attitude and enjoyed some kind of adult debate (ironically given the obvious seed of this thread!).

Sigh. I'll leave it here in the safe hands of the thought police.

meh

[Sekabin]

... oh well. *shrug*



meh

Hmm... seems to me you've just proved his point??

[Matrix]

Incidentally, thanks to the many people who have PMed with their support in this issue. I wasn't looking to start a storm, just wanting to hear from the people who hold this somewhat quaint world view and want to enforce it on others, so I was quite surprised when I got so many messages supporting my POV.

Mat,
Support of the masses does not legitamize a POV.
As I said before, the image is jeuvenile at best, but certainly disrespectful. It's not pornographic, just immature and contemptuous. This has more to do with common courtesy than it does with being politically correct. While you may find it "quaint", in my naive way of thinking, the world might be a better place if we were genuinely more respectful of each other.

Ah, what the hell, who gives a rat's ....

[Mr Punch]

Support of the masses does not legitamize a POV.

I didn't suggest that it did. Read my lines, not between them: I was thanking the people who'd written to me and expressing surprise that they had and that they'd taken the trouble to write but hadn't posted on the thread in public.

I wasn't suggesting it gave 'legitimacy' to my opinion. But since you're talking about respect, how would you figure that I needed somebody else to legitimise my POV? Why does my having a different sense of humour to you (however juvenile you may deem it to be in your wisdom... I'm not even going to go into cultural aspects of what makes something funny) make my point any less legitimate?

The image is disrespectful? News for you bub, so's 90% of comedy.

How are these images contemptuous? They are illustrating a couple of points, primarily that anyone can doctor an image (which has a greater bearing on MA legitimacy in general esp to the general public in terms of the legitimacy of the arts and their creation stories, let alone one generation ago's lineage politics BS).

And they were made/posted by people who have maybe invested as much into the preservation and furtherance of this art as you or Marcus... who I'm sure weren't feeling contemtuous in any way towards Yip Man.

While you may find it "quaint", in my naive way of thinking, the world might be a better place if we were genuinely more respectful of each other.

Ah, what the hell, who gives a rat's ....

I agree about the respect. What I find quaint is that you people are more willing to defend iconography and the mythologised and dehumanised legend that Yip Man and his legacy have become than to address a different opinion.

Do I take it that you saying let's be more respectful and following it up with who gives a rat's ass was ironic? Cos frankly sunshine, I find your humour offensive [/sarcasm].

Which is more respectful? Deigning to accept another's POV or lionising an image? I've got more respect for Yip Man and his living tradition of wing chun than any of you clowns and your edicts. If a POV isn't worth defending it isn't worth having.

Even though this is a small point it's indicative of the h0mogenised knee-jerk BS that's stifling traditional arts and keeping them the preserve of geeks and wannabe Confucian gentlemen.

If you don't give a rat's ass, you wouldn't have made the comment in the first place. And if you don't give a rat's ass you can **** off with your disrespect and go read that link Marcus posted about trolls not seeing interaction on the net as real interaction, and give us your backward PC BS again.

[Matrix]

I didn't suggest that it did. Read my lines, not between them: I was thanking the people who'd written to me and expressing surprise that they had and that they'd taken the trouble to write but hadn't posted on the thread in public.

That's very thoughtful of you. So you want to show respect, but only to those that agree with you. That's an interesting approach.

But since you're talking about respect, how would you figure that I needed somebody else to legitimise my POV? Why does my having a different sense of humour to you (however juvenile you may deem it to be in your wisdom... I'm not even going to go into cultural aspects of what makes something funny) make my point any less legitimate?.

IMO, when "humor" comes at the expense of someone else, it's not really funny. Too much of today's comedy is in that vein. I think it degrades us all when we mock a fellow human being. Color me naive.

The image is disrespectful? News for you bub, so's 90% of comedy.

Once again, you seem to think that because it's popular, then it must be correct. 90% or 99.99%, it makes little difference. BTW, my name is Bill, not Bub.

How are these images contemptuous?

It shows open disrespect for someone. But hey, I would hardly expect someone to understand when they think that mocking their grandmother is something to brag about. Once again, I am old fashioned in that regard.

What I find quaint is that you people are more willing to defend iconography and the mythologised and dehumanised legend that Yip Man and his legacy have become than to address a different opinion.

"You people"??? yes, let's marginalize each other into little groups of "us" and "them" that should make things better for everyone.

Which is more respectful? Deigning to accept another's POV or lionising an image? I've got more respect for Yip Man and his living tradition of wing chun than any of you clowns and your edicts.

I think you're confusing me with someone else. I have made no 'edicts', just expressed an opinion that is different from yours. Just because I don't see eye-to-eye with you does not make me a clown. Or is my opinion less valid then yours?

If a POV isn't worth defending it isn't worth having.

On that we can agree.

Even though this is a small point it's indicative of the h0mogenised knee-jerk BS that's stifling traditional arts and keeping them the preserve of geeks and wannabe Confucian gentlemen.

Sorry Mat, you lost me there. I haven't got a clue as to where that came from.

If you don't give a rat's ass, you wouldn't have made the comment in the first place. And if you don't give a rat's ass you can **** off with your disrespect and go read that link Marcus posted about trolls not seeing interaction on the net as real interaction, and give us your backward PC BS again.

Hey, you ask for commentary and then you flip out when you don't like what you're reading. I don't know Marcus and my opinion is not in total alignement with his. It's irrelavent to this discussion.
Please keep in mind that not everything modern is necessarily progress. That's just my opinion. Your mileage may vary.

[Mr Punch]

That's very thoughtful of you. So you want to show respect, but only to those that agree with you. That's an interesting approach.

That is a fairly common human failing, and if that is what you have perceived in me maybe I need to reconsider what I wrote. But I will say, I was perfectly respectful to everyone on this thread until yourself and Marcus showed a lack of respect for ideas that opposed yours (of which is what you've just accused me, and those who found the images funny). As for thanking the people who'd written to me as in some way being 'proof' of my disrespect, I would say that is ridiculou: would you have me thank the people who didn't write to me too?!

IMO, when "humor" comes at the expense of someone else, it's not really funny. Too much of today's comedy is in that vein. I think it degrades us all when we mock a fellow human being. Color me naive.

No, I agree. I still fail to see how these images are actually mocking or disrespectful to Yip Man.

Once again, you seem to think that because it's popular, then it must be correct. 90% or 99.99%, it makes little difference.

Once again you're reading between the lines. I stated a made-up statistic to present an oft-stated truism! I did not state that I thought this to be a morally acceptible condition. My point was that since humour and respect are both highly subjective concepts just stating that something is disrespectful does not make it a fact; it remains an opinion. Thus I wanted somebody to explain that opinion to me.

It shows open disrespect for someone. But hey, I would hardly expect someone to understand when they think that mocking their grandmother is something to brag about. Once again, I am old fashioned in that regard.

Quite. I don't understand. Again; how is it disrespectful?

And BTW, I didn't brag about mocking my grandmother, I stated. It is again your inference that I was in some way bragging. It was also, in case your literalness has prevented you from catching this, a feeble attempt at humour through overexagerration. Funny, and usually you seem to be so keen to read between the lines... or did you really think my grandmother would have beaten me? And don't give me some trite 'well I don't know who you are over the internet' kind of spiel: how likely was it really?

The point about my grandmother was agin to illustrate that different people have different boundaries of tolerance to humour. Again, this does not necessarily mean that we were disrespectful or that in some way our moral regard is less than those who don't share the same view. As you said; YMMV.

"You people"??? yes, let's marginalize each other into little groups of "us" and "them" that should make things better for everyone.

I think you're confusing me with someone else. I have made no 'edicts', just expressed an opinion that is different from yours. Just because I don't see eye-to-eye with you does not make me a clown. Or is my opinion less valid then yours?

Admittedly, the 'you people' was a bit of a cheap shot, but by 'you people' I mean 'people who mythologise and dehumanise Yip Man (especially through iconography)'. There are, in case you hadn't noticed, certain common traits that enable humans to categorise other humans in order to better understand human nature (and to summarize differing opinions so we don't get down to describing the colour blue in every discussion!)... often it's very wrong, but don't tell me you don't do it either!

The clown part was also cheap, and born out of exasperation: we are accusing each other of the same thing, disrespect of others' opinions.



As to the part I lost you on, it was a comment about the attitude of some people to assume an image of the trappings surrounding MA which ultimately reflects badly on MA and its practitioners. Admittedly, if you genuinely didn't find the first view of the first of those altered images on this thread as even slightly amusing, this doesn't apply to you.

I wasn't 'flipping out' and I'm still not flipping out.

Please keep in mind that not everything modern is necessarily progress. That's just my opinion. Your mileage may vary.

Again, your inference. I haven't made any suggestion as to the relationship to era, only culture.

Since we appear to agree that disrespect is bad, and that respect of others' opinions is both important and something we think each other is lacking in, it only remains for someone to answer me my original question which was how these images are disrespectful (or contemptuous, or pornographic, or degrading or any other synonym) in this context (and therefore anything other than a difference in opinion and therefore to be respected).

So, now we have clarified everything until it is pointless...

and so this **** thread can die (unless one of the mods would be good enough to lock it... )

How are these images in this context disrespectful, degrading, contemptuous or pornographic to Yip Man or his memory?

That will be all thank you (bangs head on wall).

[Matrix]

I was perfectly respectful to everyone on this thread until yourself and Marcus showed a lack of respect for ideas that opposed yours (of which is what you've just accused me, and those who found the images funny).

Please show me where I showed lack of respect to anyone's ideas. I don't think you should lump me in with Marcus. This is not a black-and-white issue, but there are many shades of gray.

As for thanking the people who'd written to me as in some way being 'proof' of my disrespect, I would say that is ridiculou: would you have me thank the people who didn't write to me too?!

I did not say that the thanks were expressed to prove disrespect, only that it was meant to support your position. You could have just as easily thanked them directly in a reply to their PM. Besides, it's no big deal either way.

I still fail to see how these images are actually mocking or disrespectful to Yip Man.

That's the crux of the issue. It's subjective. I fine it juevenile, but that's my opinion. If you don't think it's disrespectful, than I wonder if you find it respectful of any individual. I would ask that you replace the person in image with someone you do respect. Would you feel the same way?

My point was that since humour and respect are both highly subjective concepts just stating that something is disrespectful does not make it a fact; it remains an opinion.

I agree with this statement. It's my opinion. Not a fact. I think I stated very clearly that was the case, if not that's my error. Others may have put it differently. Don't lump me in with them please.

So, now we have clarified everything until it is pointless....

Yes, let's just leave it at that.
Thank you for being so civil.

Sincerely,

[Mr Punch]

That's the crux of the issue. It's subjective. I fine it juevenile, but that's my opinion. If you don't think it's disrespectful, than I wonder if you find it respectful of any individual. I would ask that you replace the person in image with someone you do respect. Would you feel the same way?

The one picture I thought was a little off was the one with Yip Man's neck elongated. The mutation aspect of it I found a little distasteful and was against the initial point of the discussion. As for the rest, no problem with Yip Man or anyone I know of better, love more or respect more deeply.

Yes, let's just leave it at that.
Thank you for being so civil.

Sincerely,

And thank you sir .

[Matrix]

The one picture I thought was a little off was the one with Yip Man's neck elongated. The mutation aspect of it I found a little distasteful and was against the initial point of the discussion.

Mat,
That's interesting. I think we all have idiosyncracies that cause us to react in markedly different ways to the certain images. It's not always logical. In fact I think we often respond in an emotional way and reverse-engineer a "logical" response to justify our position. We're funny creatures, aren't we.

Take care,

[Sekabin]

Well, after reading that Mat was offended by the picture I posted, and thinking that there may be others too, I've decided to remove it.

I think we can understand what's been going on by thinking about how many people feel when their family is insulted. Often it's ok to make fun of your own relatives, but you don't feel quite so comfortable when other's do it for you. For many of us, our training in WC contained giving respect to each other as a family and to the former relatives. Some teachers ask their students to bow before photographs of their Sifu and/or their Sifu's Sifu. We may call this ancestor worship or whatever, but the fact is that it has great meaning for some people, just as having photos of a deceased family member has great meaning for people.

I understand both sides of the situation, and I don't think they are mutually exclusive. We should be careful, in this age of great historical and social studies, not to raise people onto a pedestal too high that when facts are discovered they fall too far. But similarly, we should be respectful of other's feelings and beliefs within reason.

Right, sorry for the diversion into other aspects of WC (this thread could actually be interesting)... back to the usual squabbling.