Polian quan = Shaolin Taizu changquan?

[Sal Canzonieri]

I'm not sure how much preservation I can do, I really don't think I have full un altered sets just becasue of the way I learned them.

I think you are right, the Tai Tzu Hong Chuan came from his royal guard, and the Tai Tzu Chang Chuan is the imperial family line.

I think the Tai Tzu Chang Chuan is more rare, but it is als a folk style today.

I also think the Tai Tzu Hong Chuan is the older of the two, and one of the base arts the Emperor drew on when creating his personal style. I also suspect that the Tai Tzu Hong Chuan was the Hong Chuan that influanced the Chen style of Taiji, but that is just a personal hunch with no basis in credible research.

Lots of people say that Tong Bei was the art that the soldiers already practiced when Tai Tzu became a soldier. So, he had to learn it to be a soldier.
Also, he learned Lohan from Shaolin, which clearly has some "mother" moves seen in the various Tai Tzu Quans.

Chen village martial arts was mostly based on Pao Chui from Henan Province (shaolin influence) but the founders of the village came from Shanxi province originally, where Hong Quan and Tai Tzi Quan was very popular for a long time already.
AND, the Chen Tai ji "founder" had served in the Military in Shandong province, where Tai Tzu was very popular already as well.
So, you might be very right.

When you see the Chen Tai Ji long fist and Lao Jia forms (and learn them) and also learn the Shaolin Xiao Hong Quan (and the real Da Hong Quan form not the one seen more often today) AND the Shaolin Tai Tzu Quan forms, THEN
your clearly see the mother moves that easily are adapted into Chen Tai Ji moves.

I will make a chart when I get the chance in the next few month that lists each move in Chen and Yang long forms and the corresponding moves in the Shaolin Tai Tzu / Hong Quans forms. Whole sequences of moves are duplicated in the same order.

[DRleungjan]

Sal and Royal Dragon,

Wow...this is so interesting....may I ask a question? Did Taizu Chuan influence any southern styles and if so how did that come about?

Thanks in advance.

[Royal Dragon]

I'm not sure. I do know there ARE Southern branches of Tai Tzu Chang Chuan. It's known as Tai Jow Cheun Kune Pai. It's basically the Northern, but done with a more agressive expression, deeper stances that are a tad bit less mobile, but not much and more agressive hand work.

There is also a Southern Tai Tzu Quan, but it is a seperate style. It was developed by the Sung dynasties ruling family in the LATE Southern Sung dynasty. It was originally for rapid rebuilding of troops after the losses in the North. That branch developed quite a bit more in local villiages and eventualy evolved to become the Five Ancestor's Fist when it merged with 4 other styles (White Crane being one) This branch later spread to Okinawia and became Okinawian Karate.

The Tai Tzu school also contains 8 sets of Northern Monkey, and 8 sets of Southen Monkey. The line is not the modern Tai Shing Pekwar though, but a branch of Monkey Kung Fu who's origines go back to roughly 650 AD.

There is also the Six Stance Fist, Cha Fist, Hua Fist and Gun Fist that are all direct descendants of northern Tai Tzu.

I have also heard Nine Way Mandrian Duck is somehow related.

Both Chen Taiji and Northern Preying Mantis can trace thier roots to heavy Tai Tzu influances.

The Imperial Guard that was commanded by the soon to be Emperor, Sung Tai Tzu (took the throne in 960 AD) practiced an art called Hong Jia Quan. I believe this is the same art known as Tai Tzu Hong Chuan today, and most likely is Tai Tzu Chang Chuan's most imediate predicessor.

Tai Tzu in it's various forms were spread all over China becasue it was widely taught to the military both in it's original Sung dynasty, and later in the Ming dynasty. My guess is most of the lines just died out. What didn't, most likely evolved into many minor family styles. What didn't die out or evolve into other arts is still with us today. Some lines are intact and complete, and others are parts of Tai Tzu systems preserved as single sets in many other Long fist styles.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Sal and Royal Dragon,

Wow...this is so interesting....may I ask a question? Did Taizu Chuan influence any southern styles and if so how did that come about?

Thanks in advance.

Yes, many!

Most Hakka martial arts are based on it.

So is the Wanderer's or Beggar's style.

Go Ju Ryu and the Chinese Five Ancestors style is largely based on forms from Southern Tai Tzu Quan style .

and

Wing Chun looks so much like Southern Tai tzi quan that I think many people are in denial that it surely is a major influence.

[Royal Dragon]

Hmm, I didn't know it was that wide spread. I have heard the unicorn style is based on Southern Tai Tzu Quan too though.

It makes sense though, given Tai Tzu's age (both styles bering the name), and both haveing been so wide spread by the military of several dynasties.

[DRleungjan]

Thanks alot guys....that sure gives an answer to some of my questions.

[shaolinche]

Our school has 2 tai zu chang quan forms and 1 two man tai zu chang quan form. Our forms come from Grandmaster Yin Chian Ho and Master Cheng Tsang Lu. Our forms are different than John Wangs and the Han Ching Tang lineage. Very unique.

Royal Dragon,
I know that you wanted to get a video of our forms, sorry about how long it has been. I just haven't had the means and equipment to do it. Also, I think that it would be best to contact my father Master Lu. His website is www.luhealthcenter.com

I have never seen our Tai Zu chang quan forms performed outside of our lineage.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Our school has 2 tai zu chang quan forms and 1 two man tai zu chang quan form. Our forms come from Grandmaster Yin Chian Ho and Master Cheng Tsang Lu. Our forms are different than John Wangs and the Han Ching Tang lineage. Very unique.

Royal Dragon,
I know that you wanted to get a video of our forms, sorry about how long it has been. I just haven't had the means and equipment to do it. Also, I think that it would be best to contact my father Master Lu. His website is www.luhealthcenter.com

I have never seen our Tai Zu chang quan forms performed outside of our lineage.

Can you please provide his linage to Tai Tzu Quan?
What area of China make a big difference.

[Royal Dragon]

shaolinche
No biggie. I'm not in research mode right now anyway. I'm in "Back to basics" mode right now. However, when I am ready, I will be traveling around to learn what I can from everyone. Hopefully I will be able to connect the few Tai Tzu players that there are here in the US at the same time.

You and Sal are on my list, as well as Sifu Abel, and Adam Hsu. Ideally, thinking Long Term, I'd like to get my website back (It's been down since the Hurricanes, and no one is responding to my E-mails), and then link to all the reputable Tai Tzu players I know of world wide. Hopefully in time as my reputaion grows I will be able to get players of the style out of the wood works so I can provide a comprehensive list of Tai Tzu Sifu's and lineage for those interested in research.