The masters and phonies you have met who are famous.

[TenTigers]

I met Chuck Zito once. He punched out Jean-Claude vanDamme-he's my hero.

[Wong Fei Hong]

Amazing stuff i love hearing about these guys, it always inspires me to train more. Chuck zito hehehe i remember that incident.

Seven star, what was royce gracie, Quinton jackson and Dr yang jwing ming like ?
I always imagined meeting royce gracie like meeting someone who was internal like a tai chi guy, yang jwing ming to be scholarly and Quinton jackson, erm Quinton jackson to eat baby puppies.

[SPJ]

Good point on getting to know the person.

I think the baby is hugging and kissing the pup in the img?

[SevenStar]

Amazing stuff i love hearing about these guys, it always inspires me to train more. Chuck zito hehehe i remember that incident.

Seven star, what was royce gracie, Quinton jackson and Dr yang jwing ming like ?
I always imagined meeting royce gracie like meeting someone who was internal like a tai chi guy, yang jwing ming to be scholarly and Quinton jackson, erm Quinton jackson to eat baby puppies.

I actually went to school with rampage. To be honest, I only vaguely remember him. A buddy of mine still trains with him when he comes home, and he was like "man, he played ball with us and we all used to lift together..."

royce is awesome. great personality, very humble, contrary to what many people believe. He's very skilled. He's so fluid you barely feel him move on/around you, but once he's got you, you definitely know it.

Dr Yang is very good at what he does. I watched him touch my friend's shoulder and make his whole arm go numb. to this day, I'm not sure what he did.

I was almost able to add chuck norris to my list. My first MA experience was training at one of his schools when I was a kid. He visited the school, but I was never there when he came by.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Wing chuns william cheung, did a few seminars with him about 10 years ago now, thought the guy was impressive, but in retrospect he was just well marketed and dont think much of him, he sat drank coffee through out the whole seminar and showed us some combination techniques without correcting anyone. Oh and brought out lots of fotos of bruce lee and himself doing mountain poses.
His techniques were textbook wing chun,just like his books, nothing special." (Wong Fei Hong)


***AS SOMEONE who has attended over 50 public seminars given by William Cheung going back 22+ years...and as someone who has organized about 30 of those seminars...(not to mention all the semi-private instructors only seminars, private lessons, etc. - given by William Cheung)...


I CAN SAY UNEQUIVOCALLY that WFH's first post on this thread (which is the only post I've bothered to read - since I won't give trolls and their troll threads any more time than what's absolutely necessary)...

His post, which I quoted above...is BULL5HIT !!!

[Wong Fei Hong]

dude all i can say is emin botzepe troll that...

[Ultimatewingchun]

Emin Boztepe has nothing to do with it.

Your thread is troll bull5hit.

[Wong Fei Hong]

Something ive started to notice is that masters each use their own method which can be so contradictory to another master but still be so high level, one is soft the other is hard one uses intent the other hides it. One flows the other uses aggression. But they are all equally high level.
Wish i went to school with rampage but he might have eaten my puppy


abt william cheung
Dude its a shame you feel that way that this thread is troll bull, imho opinion william cheung is troll bull. For numerous reasons, its a shame as i wanted in this thread, to discuss what people found stood out, about the positive martial influences in their life. As i believe that every master has something unique.
Maybe i should start a post why william cheung is troll bull****, erm

1 riding on the name of being traditional with no traditional stances or shiftings in his wing chun. sorry this is his secret inheritance
2 Calling bullshido on all the other wc schools , and getting owned with a p by groundfighting by a guy who never did ground fighting who was half his age and not even a "grandmaster".
3 Reviewing the video tape with my then sifu he explained that whilst emin was pounding his head in he was doing bong saus and lap saus on the ground. Pleez
4 Releasing to the public the SECRET ground fighting of wing chun shortly after this incident yes i was at the seminar.
5 Using bruce lee liberally in his promotions as well as tyson. Yes willam cheung sent an email to tyson the day before his fight telling him what he needs to work on.He was in our country at a seminar at the time tyson was fighting and tyson needed his help.
6 Actually not having any backing to anything he has ever taught apart from "the numerous wing chun competitions he won when he was young" And his ability to milk 8.3 cows in one second.

In his own words
"I am the best fighter, and I am willing to prove it to them at any time, anywhere. Unlike Leung Ting and company, as shown in the photo, you only have to take one look at them to realize that none of them look that part of martial artists. I could safely say that none of them have done any hard training in recent years. They certainly don't look very impressive! "

lol

So when i say i was dissapointed because he didnt actually correct us and he was more interested in selling his photos with bruce lee, dont get offended all i stated was what i witnessed.

On a constructive note
1, one thing i learnt from him, being oriental, old and calling yourself a grandmaster doesnt mean i should trust you and give you my cash.
2 speed isnt everything so dont believe this, a guy with wing chun punches doesnt actually do so much damage, it hurts a lot more being hit once in the head by a pro boxer. Same way a fast tkd kick doesnt hurt like a muay thai roundhouse.
3 When you dont use your waist you really dont generate power.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Pleeeeeszz stop the troll bull.

That's correct, half his age. The man was 46 years old, a Chinese guy alone, for the first time in Germany, of all places, surrounded by six of Boztepe's German friends, just changed into thin Chinese slippers (from his sneakers) on a slippery wooden floor, very hesitant about punching the guy and decides to go for a neutralizing headlock for fear of repercussions if he in fact beats the guy up...and after actually kicking Boztepe away from him on Boztepe's first charge (which didn't make it into the edited version of the film that was released)...and of course a standing high headlock against someone taller and weighs more almost always means you'll get dumped onto the ground...at which point NOT ONE of the punches Boztepe threw landed cleanly - and after about 20 seconds of this - he gets away and back to his feet UNMARKED...at which point Boztepe decides to take his friends and his video camera and leave.

And as to the differences (be it footwork or any number of other things that TWC does that's different AND ADDS TO THE OVERALL QUALITY OF WING CHUN AS THE WORLD KNEW WING CHUN AT THAT TIME)...

you, WFH...obviously have no clue.

As to William Cheung's bravado, as a man already well into his forties - I'll be the first to tell you that it was a dumb move on his part. But that doesn't change anything else I've said on this post.

[David Jamieson]

dude, the 40's thing is NO argument.

I'm in my forties.
My training partner is in his forties.

I've never had a teacher under forty.

I've sparred hard with more than a few over forties.

Being in your forties wil only impede you in your desire to compete, not so much in your ability. The desire for competition is for younger guys, the ability to kick ass is definitely not the exclusive domain of youth.


As for that film, I think it is mostly embarassing because it shows how both of them have equal ground to stand on when it comes to tactical ineffectiveness at that time.

Neither of them will improve as a fighter because neither of them actually fights, not has fought outside of a couple of stories. Typical guys who spend too much time using techniques on compliant students or wooden dummies.

They both represent a bigger problem in the thinking of martial arts from pretty much every single tradition that does not actively spare and pressure test techniques.

Competition that is not rigged and not about saving face for someone else.
Competition that uses a reasonable concept to allow for demonstration of an art from a purely tactical perspective is not something that is found in many traditional venues. So far, the only way to safely show the arts is to do it on a flattened playing ground. For Kungfu it is San Shou, or Muay Thai or even MMA venues. THose are the places to go if you want to compete in an open sense and none of the 'to the death' stuff is required. Just good sport and a reasonable determination if you are fit enough to fight or not. THat fitness isn't based on whether or not you lose the fight, it's based on should you even be in there in the first place.


The playground and it's dynamic and the competitors who enter it's dynamic has further effect on how people fight in that playground, to a point where a new thing comes into being.


If you don't play your kungfu at all levels of practice and application, it will not develop and will not develop in the direction you have chosen to not take, such as competitive fighting.

You can't swim if you don't go in the water.
reading and watching has never produced a fighter.

read my sig

[Ultimatewingchun]

Check out the wing chun forum for some news (a new thread) about a couple of wing chun guys in England who just won some MMA NHB events.

And as to taking a MMA approach and engaging in some very realistic sparring/fighting/grappling...I agree.

I'm 55 years old and I still full contact spar/roll competitively with my students/friends every week.

But I still don't see how that changes what REALLY happened back in 1986 in Germany (almost 20 years ago). And I certainly don't understand why this event, which has been discussed, debated, and fought over ad nauseum for all these years - still needs to be trolled over.

[Wong Fei Hong]

As for that film, I think it is mostly embarassing because it shows how both of them have equal ground to stand on when it comes to tactical ineffectiveness at that time.

I have to agree tottaly with this comment, its not a case about trolling nor is it about beating a dead horse as to why this happened , the case is you cant expect a grandmaster in any respective style, to have that happen to them. And then still demand respect. If he was a coach i would say ok he just knows technique...
But lets face it I could have placed any 18 year old testosterone filled guy with no training against william cheung and in the same situation the guy would have bashed his head in judging by what happened. Emin wasnt even going hard i mean you look at some of those ground and pound fighters or someone who really wants to do damage he could have cracked william cheungs head like a lemon. I think the point was to shake him up and ridicule him.
Saying things like slippers and no punches landed and videos and the tape was edited and he was surrounded etc etc etc etc , ffs the guy is supposed to be a master, If he got jumped on the street by a crack hooligan he would be dead and there would be no room for this debate. Did he expect in a real confrontation to do the entry technique followed by pak sau roll punch ?

As for william cheungs Traditional wing chun being better than other wing chun at the time well i dont know the evidence speaks for itself.

I also have to admit that age is not a factor in these things, ok conditioning in terms of stamina is different, but most of the guys that ive seen that could hurt me without me being able to touch are definately over 50.

And I certainly don't understand why this event, which has been discussed, debated, and fought over ad nauseum for all these years - still needs to be trolled over.

Ok in all honesty i will answer this question with another question, why do people still, inspite of proof at how badly a grandmaster handled a confrontation still defend and support him. If he cant make it work what chance do all the tens of thousands of begginers have to make it work.
I studied wing chun for 6 years getting to instructor level in william cheungs style and tbh tottaly honest it was a waste of time compared to learning other styles I followed afterwards . Had i not believed the bullsh1t that william cheung feeds his instructors and then respectively the instructors teach us then i wouldnt have wasted my time. In this light i think people like william cheung shouldnt have organisations. Simply to save people time and effort as well as from getting them killed if they ever got into a confrontation.


I looked at the wing chun forum and i definately look forward to seeing those fights , the cage warriors event is huge in the uk and i look forward to the event regardless of result its good to see wing chun in there, however linking it to my previous statements, I believe someone like william cheung should have it tried and tested before he has organisations of 10s or 100s of thousands of people world wide. Not wait for 20 years until someone appears from uk tottaly unnaffiliated to him to participate in an event using wing chun because he has managed to adapt his training to "work"
The problem starts at the source.

[Kaitain(UK)]

UWC - suggest you look at my additions to the Wing CHun NHB thread before you use it as evidence. The format was one four minute round with no head shots. So yes they fought and won in a competition (respect for that), but it wasn't NHB by any measure. They include the information about the format on their website, but didnt mention it on the forum. http://www.alanorr.co.uk/htdocs/nhb/teamironorr.html

[Wong Fei Hong]

oh well , one will rise one day
I remember that for years Gary turner fought under the lau gar schools name, He did really well i got to see him when he was going for european semi contact championship quite a few years ago, recently he was one of the uk k-1 competitors , however he is nowadays affiliated with a kickboxing or thai boxing gym.
http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~turne...y%20turner.htm

Its a shame but i think the reason is because trad schools just dont keep up the intensity so that you can train like a pro.

Saw the fight clips and there was no wc in it , but it was more credible than the emin william cheung fight Sorry UWC i couldnt resist. Interesting to see how the guys train, and if the use wing chun for the stand up or if they spar using wing chun i.e if there were head shots if you would see wing chun in there

[David Jamieson]

Many people do not enter trad schools to competitively fight, many trad schools do not offer training for competitive fighting.

this is why trad people who want to enter these venues have no choice at this time but to enter a different training regimen than what is offered in traditional type schools.

the instensity for training for competition fighting is sky high when compared to your average 3x aweek learn some forms and how to meditate type thing.

the training is far more athletically geared with tons of cv training and plenty of strength training that would be too much for your average hobbyist martial artists, or health pursuers...who by nature of health maintenance would not focus on competitive violence.