WC's bread & butter techniques

[Shadowboxer]

UWC,

I would classify the chain punch as a gross motor skill compared to the fine motor skill of using a phoenix eye to hit the Taiyang (M-HN-9) point--the temple--on a consistent basis. You wouldn't teach a newby the PE punch, you would start them
off by devoloping a relaxed vertical fist punch.

I'm curious about this distinction due to the effects of adrenaline dump, tunnel vision, and other stressful factors that occur during an altercation on one's ability to recall and utilize fine motor skills. If this is the case, should we just identify and train gross motor skills--the one punch practiced thousands of times analogy?

Ernie and forum,

If you were going to explore the mantis concept of "provoking", what might you try in a sparring/"alive" situation?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Now that I understand what you mean by gross vs. fine motor skills, SB...

I would say categorically that gross motor skills are WAY more important to train (whether a beginner or not) than fine motor skills - precisely because of what you said about adrenaline dumping and tunnel vision that can occur when faced with a real life stress provoking violent situation.

Another reason, in fact, to train/memorize/program oneself with certain set responses to certain types of situations and attacks - even if they are meant to be basically just guidelines that can be improvised upon, changed drastically, or even discarded altogether at any given moment.

In fact, in my own training...I have started doing the reverse of what I've always been taught (and I suspect what most, if not all, wing chun practitioners have been taught)...concerning one's "on guard position", to coin a phrase.

I start every sparring session now WITH CLOSED FISTS, and I only open them when it's time to pak, lop, tan, bong, etc....instead of having an open hand and fingers fully extended as the "on guard position".

I believe that the closed fist from the outset provides the greatest opportunity to make EACH AND EVERY PUNCH - (and punches are the primary striking weapon) - the most powerful they can possibly be...as opposed to the general wing chun idea that the fist should only be clenched at the last second (ie.- on impact).

Adrenaline dumping definitely trumps theory - when real life violence is at hand!

Likewise - I don't believe in trying to snap the wrist (ala the one inch punch phenomena)....when all the marbles are at stake. The hand and the wrist should be treated like they were all one piece, ie. - the wrist is locked.

Phoenix eye knuckle strikes, however, can be the exception to these ideas about fine vs. gross motor skills, imo - precisely because it's just a short step from a basic closed fist to the Phoenix.

Not so with finger strikes (bil jee).

And as far as bil jee strikes are concerned, my theory is that they can best be used in those instances wherein I was already in an open hand position (ie. - a pak or jut was called for - and now there's an opportunity to follow with a finger strike to a sensitive target (eyes, throat, carotids).

And the same with palm strikes or chops...I believe they're usually best utilized after an open hand manuever has opened up a line for attack at a very close range...or after wrestling in the clinch has provided an opportunity for a close range strike.

[ghostofwingchun]

Ghost,
You are right in that you cannot SEE the difference. As an observer it is difficult or impossible to tell how the techniques evolved. The really difference is in how you mentally approach the situation.

No, in fact it is quite the opposite. Beginners learn the "techniques" in very much of a drilled fashion. For example, they do Pak Da several hundred times. They do not really grasp the concepts at this point. I think the conceptual view is for for more advanced players. As your understanding of the concepts and principles evolve, you really start to understand how the techniques can be applied.

This is a great question. And the answer is YES. In WC we learn all the principles and concepts, and then we break them. At the advanced level you need to move beyond the limits of the principles that have guided you to that point - you can take the training wheels off. You will hear people say that WC doesn't do this or that. In the end if it works, it's WC.

Thank you Matrix for your reply! I understand that beginners learn techniques . . . then they learn or develop concepts to help them put those techniques to work . . . my confusion is how this can be described as principle based martial art? The basis or beginning in that case seems to me to be technique . . . and after student learn that basis . . . the technique . . . comes principle or concept to help use that basis. You even say that later the concepts can be broken . . . but we will still be using techniques. This is why I am confused. I am wondering if principle based is one of those things that sounds profound but is really empty of substance but because we hear it repeated all the time we just accept it as true. I am thinking that concepts are substitute for experience so that beginners will have something to guide them . . . as beginners we have no experience to use as guide so only have concepts . . . but as we gain more experience it replaces concepts . . . and experts have so much experience they have no need of concepts. This is just my tentative thoughts at present . . . thanks again for taking time to explain your views and help me think about these things.

Thanks,

Ghost

[ghostofwingchun]

Mr Parlati you seem from your comments to be very no nonsense and fighting oriented in your wc training . . . and I enjoy and find your comments very interesting in regard to adrenal dump. . . what I don't understand is your reference to biu jee strikes as finger strikes . . . are you talking about poking with the fingers as strikes to eyes and throat? It is my understanding that adrenal dump reduces ability to use fine motor control . . . and finger is run with fine motor control . . . and also reduces ability to finely target . . . so under high stress conditions we will lose ability to use fingers as weapons and ability to reliably strike small targets . . . I am thinking that this would make finger strikes pretty useless in adrenal dump situation. Would you mind sharing your thoughts on this topic and explaining your views to me? I would find it helpful.

Thanks,

Ghost

[Shadowboxer]

I would say categorically that gross motor skills are WAY more important to train (whether a beginner or not) than fine motor skills - precisely because of what you said about adrenaline dumping and tunnel vision that can occur when faced with a real life stress provoking violent situation---UWC

What do you consider some examples of gross motor skills to be?

[Jeff Bussey]

Hey Ghost,
When you're asking about principle based vs technique based, I understand your point. But, the way I see it is this,
Let's say you study for an exam in school. You make a definitions page and learn all of the relevant ones to that subject. When you go into the exam, you may not be asked directly for that definition but questions involving them. If you really understand the definitions, you'll be able to pull an answer together.

It's much the same with ving tsun. The techniques are our definitions and our response is how well we know them.


J

[KPM]

I start every sparring session now WITH CLOSED FISTS, and I only open them when it's time to pak, lop, tan, bong, etc....instead of having an open hand and fingers fully extended as the "on guard position".

I believe that the closed fist from the outset provides the greatest opportunity to make EACH AND EVERY PUNCH - (and punches are the primary striking weapon) - the most powerful they can possibly be...as opposed to the general wing chun idea that the fist should only be clenched at the last second (ie.- on impact).

.

Hey Victor!

Interesting comments! Remember in previous threads when I mentioned the old western bare knuckle boxing styles and how similar to Wing Chun they were? The basic "on guard" position in the old western pugilism is with closed fists. I find that training with a "closed fist" guard instead of an "open hand" guard gives me a more "aggressive" mindset. When you already have fists made, you are immediately thinking about how you are going to hit the opponent.....not how you are going to block the opponent. Now imagine the "typical" Wing Chun Man sau & Wu sau guard position.....then make fists! This is essentially the western pugilism guard. The elbows are still in and down and the lead arm is still a bit extended....unlike the modern boxing guard position.

Keith

[ghostofwingchun]

Hey Ghost,
When you're asking about principle based vs technique based, I understand your point. But, the way I see it is this,
Let's say you study for an exam in school. You make a definitions page and learn all of the relevant ones to that subject. When you go into the exam, you may not be asked directly for that definition but questions involving them. If you really understand the definitions, you'll be able to pull an answer together.

It's much the same with ving tsun. The techniques are our definitions and our response is how well we know them.


J

Mr. Bussey thanks so much for responding to my question! I am glad someone see what I am talking about . . . lol. Instead of definitions I see techniques as closer to operations like adding, subtracting, dividing . . . and concepts just like concepts in math . . . ways of helping us use these operations to solve problems . . . like cumulative, distributive, and so on . . . there are also strategies for solving certain types of problems and so on . . . but math is based on operations and our math skill is how well we use these operations to solve problems . . . certainly cannot solve many problems by remembering fixed solutions since unlimited number of problems . . . we learn to solve problems by using the operations to solve problems . . . practice. Perhaps we have two ways of looking at it since those ways are closer to our occupations? . . . lol . . .

Thanks,

Ghost

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Remember in previous threads when I mentioned the old western bare knuckle boxing styles and how similar to Wing Chun they were? The basic "on guard" position in the old western pugilism is with closed fists. I find that training with a "closed fist" guard instead of an "open hand" guard gives me a more "aggressive" mindset. When you already have fists made, you are immediately thinking about how you are going to hit the opponent.....not how you are going to block the opponent."


***I COULDN'T have said it better, Keith.


.....................

And training/drilling one's punching skills while starting with closed fists is a perfect example of working gross motor skills, SB.

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Ghost: Your point about finger strikes being problematic in a real situation due to adrenaline dump is well taken...It's difficult - but not impossible. Don't count on using them; but if the opportunity arises and you have enough mental/emotional control at that moment - fine!

[Taff]

Re: Starting with closed fists

Doesn't it lower your ability to use different strikes, such as palms?

[CFT]

Re: Starting with closed fists

Doesn't it lower your ability to use different strikes, such as palms?

But they don't have to be clenched tight - in fact I would say that would be counter-productive. So it wouldn't take much to open back out into a palm. But it is a good focus of intent - to attack and hit rather than focusing too much on defense.

[zooki]

Back to the Main Thread Discussion>>

I think i understand what you are saying about "main techniques and adrenalin in a fight".

I think most people would find punching, chain punching easy. Easy, as in you will use those as second nature in a confrontation, whether or not you have adrenalin. I'd think Elbows and kicks then come in.

Time factor is important in a confrontation, when you can calm your mind and focus you can think more clearly on what you need to do and what techniques you will incorporate.

Personally I dont see Kicks as being useful in a high adrenalin, fast paced, suprise street confrontation. Punches come more naturally. So, i dont think aiming to do spinning round house kicks straight away in the above scenario is a good idea!! And generally Kicks shouldnt be used unless you really need to, i.e. nerve destruction so you can go in and finish them off with chain punches, and the kicks kept low.

Keep training hard, muscular endurance, power and speed are things that you can train and will always come in useful in any situation. So, eat good food, Skip loads, Press-ups, hindu Press-ups, chin ups, situps, leg raises, squats... Box Jumping, Side Jumping, footwork skills are all important if you want to be fully prepared and are as important as learning new martial art skills.

I wouldnt think it was too much to worry about, unless you live in a very high crime area where you risk getting beat up everyday. I'd advise moving!! On the odd chance someone does want to fight, I wouldnt think they have a great deal of knowledge about MA, but perhaps a lot of experience beating the crap out of people on streets and taking their money. This is where the above training comes in handy.

[Shadowboxer]

Is bong lop da a gross motor skill?

Is (yut fook yee) one hand bridges two -- dealing with the boxer's jab cross/jab hook -- a gross motor skill?

[Ultimatewingchun]

I would categorize anything (ie.- bong lop da, basic punching, low kicks, etc.)...anything that you would use FREQUENTLY in a real fighting/sparring situation - and therefore should be drilled often - as a gross motor skill.

[Jeff Bussey]

Mr. Bussey thanks so much for responding to my question! I am glad someone see what I am talking about . . . lol. Instead of definitions I see techniques as closer to operations like adding, subtracting, dividing . . . and concepts just like concepts in math . . . ways of helping us use these operations to solve problems . . . like cumulative, distributive, and so on . . . there are also strategies for solving certain types of problems and so on . . . but math is based on operations and our math skill is how well we use these operations to solve problems . . . certainly cannot solve many problems by remembering fixed solutions since unlimited number of problems . . . we learn to solve problems by using the operations to solve problems . . . practice. Perhaps we have two ways of looking at it since those ways are closer to our occupations? . . . lol . . .

Thanks,

Ghost

Hey Ghost,
So when you solve problems mathematically, you don't do so through memorization, you do so because you understand the mathematics involved. You're using what you were taught and applying it.

I see ving tsun as when we learn it, we learn techniques, and when we use it, it becomes the concept.

If you take sil lim tau (or any form for that matter), and look at how your hand moves (transitions) from one point to another, the transition is also important, not just the final destination. So when people say that it becomes a blur on what techniques are being used in their application, I think that's may be what they're talking about.
Perhaps a good way to look at it, is that people mainly fight with their transitions of movements and because things are happening so quickly, they're onto the next one until it's finished.

J