Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Judge Pen]

Actually it's the words of the author and I assume you are referring to the table "Origins of some of the material mastered by Grandmaster Sin Kwan The."

[The Willow Sword]

Simple in that we all know what SD is and what it ISNT. Yet therein lies the complications because we all have different opinions and experiences with SD.

The rest of the TCMA world recognizes SD for what it is. You can take as many trips to China as you want and be "validated" by the people there who are interested in tourist dollars and helping you guys to live out your fantasies, but still there is a underlying REALITY that remains and believe me, it is NOT the reality you faithfull SD followers believe to be so. I can ASSURE YOU OF THAT.

but should it really matter what the detractors ,and the once faithfull followers who opened their eyes, say and write? It really shouldnt should it?

I mean when you really break all this down and analyze it what you get is people trying so hard to convince themselves and validate themselves that what they are doing "IS" the "REAL" thing and the "ONLY" thing worth doing.
i am reminded of fundamentlaist christians who believe so much what they are into that they blind themselves to all other ways, they condemn other ways and paths,either vocally or silently in thier own minds, they become Radical.
i have seen this all too much within the organization with which i was once faithful to.
you have a kind of silent arrogance that permeates everything you do and you know,that's the world of politics and ego in the martial arts, especially in this country, America, where capitolism and the face value is taken and consumed like one who is an addict, just wanting that quick fix and wanting more and more and more.
Thats what the system seems to provide. But hey its not just with SD you see this in a lot of dojos and kwoons in this country trying to pass themselves off as something REAL and marketing themselves according to what is "IN".
Since there seems to be more of am emphasis on attaining more and more instead of really LEARNING what it is you have, what you get in the final analysis is a bunch of garbage and routines that only seek to lead you to yet another chinese box of more chinese boxes. OR it could be that old capitolistic value mindset that we all have that says that we have to always update and attain new things. Like the auto industry that constantly puts out the new thing and gets people hooked on getting rid of last years model(which is still fully functional and reliable) for this years model.
i site these examples to prove a point in that SD has marketed themselves VERY well and is very successful in the areas they have chosen to set up. Sin The' has made quite the name for himself and in a way i can respect that, i really can.
However, like the starbucks corporation who seeks to permeate everything like a virus and choke out the local mom and pop cafes, SD seeks to choke out the "traditionalists" with their rhetoric and borrow and b@st@rdize every aspect of the oriental arts by claiming to be something that they clearly are not. But hey coffee is coffee right? just like kung fu is kung fu and karate is karate and so on and so forth?
If anything i have learned at SD i have learned that it really doesnt pay to attach yourself to something that is constantly revolving around itself and changing its tune and its form structure and mentality so much that you sit there wondering where the hell you are and where you stand within it.

you know what i say? i say give guys like KC and golden tiger and others in the SD realm a break, a clean break. If what you know to be true in your mind's eye is not theirs, then dont bother with what they believe to be true. we all post our opinions and flame and troll and it always keeps coming back around to the same ole same ole.
So let them live in the realm they have chosen to live in, just as we choose to live in the reality we have created for ourselves. i hope the movie does get made, its a great story and a creative work of fiction and would be an entertaining film.

There is an old Zen saying about the west " A mile wide and an inch deep"


as always and forever,,TWS.

[David Jamieson]

lol at shifting the focus to me.

whatever guys.

one can look at two apples and readily tell which one is ripe and which one is not.

If you can't, then you don't know apples.

I've been eating apples for a long time.
But I certainly don't make any high claims about the martial arts I practice.

One can pay homage to the roots of shaolin kungfu without making claim that only their garden is from those roots and thereby making an attempt at ostracizing others that clearly come from the same tree.

The needs to do some housecleaning in that regards if it all comes down to blame the pions lol. The has the final say, it's his organization and if he doesn't have control of the information that comes out of his organization, then his organization is not much of one.

Anyway, if anyone wants to speak to the legit concerns as opposed to deflecting focus due to rage and contempt or to blame someone else in the organization etc etc, then by all means, we're obviously better than 1500 posts later prepared to listen to some of the real deal. lol

would sin care to make comments on this? Or is he of the mind that any publicity is good publicity.

[Judge Pen]

would sin care to make comments on this? Or is he of the mind that any publicity is good publicity.

Why should he care?

[David Jamieson]

Why should he care?

um, kind of answers itself really.

let me use a metaphor.

say you were a captain of a ship, and that ship was being attacked by other ships, should you care?

[Judge Pen]

say you were a captain of a ship, and that ship was being attacked by other ships, should you care?

Only if you thought the other ships were a threat.

Obvioulsy he doesn't expect or need your, or anyone else that posts on an online community's, approval to be secure in what he does.

[lxtruong]

um, kind of answers itself really.

let me use a metaphor.

say you were a captain of a ship, and that ship was being attacked by other ships, should you care?

Actually perhaps a more apt. metaphor would be if you were the owner of a fleet of ships, and someone out there was spreading a rumor in one particular bar that your fleet was not oceanworthy.

However, let's be honest the vast majority of consumers either 1. don't know about this debate, 2. don't care.

So to go back to this metaphor, sure people are badmouthing the fleet in this one pub, but suppose there were a large number of pubs which did not contain this discussion. And besides, not all prospective clients even GO to pubs. Who's going to care?

[kwaichang]

OK GUYS I GUESS YOU HAVE ABOUT SAID IT ALL. I JUST WISH I HAD THE TIME WASTED BY US ALL TO TRAIN EVEN MORE IN SD. BUT ALAS I DO NOT AND I TOO HAVE CAST MY PEARLS BEFORE SWINE. YOU ALL SAY THAT SD IS NOT THE REAL DEAL BUT ALL YOU DO IS OFFER HERESAY AND A SMIDGEN A VERY SMALL SMIDGEN OF TRUTH AT BEST. SO SINCE YOU CANT PROVE OR DISPROVE ANYTHING LET ME SAY YOU ARE JUST JEALOUS.
I HAVE FOUND IN LIFE THAT PEOPLE WHO ARE ENVIOUS OF SOMETHING TYPICALLY TRY TO MAKE IT INTO A LIE OR SAY BAD OR UNTRUE THINGS, IT IS HUMAN NATURE. I WOULD LIKE TO SEE AN ITEMIZED LIST OF FALSEHOODS OF THE SD SYSTEM NUMBERED SO WE CAN DEBATE THEM 1 BY 1.
HOW ABOUT IT TWS I KNOW YOU BEST AND WHY YOU ARE SO DETERMINED TO SAY SD IS NOT FROM THE SHAO-LIN TEMPLES IS BEYOND ME YOU ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO HAVE AN EGO . SO HERE IS ALL YOU GUYS CHANCE TO ITEMIZE AND PROVE YOUR WAY OF THINKING ONCE AND FOR ALL. THIS IS A CHALLENGE TO ALL WHO FEEL SD IS NOT SHAOLIN. KC

[The Willow Sword]

K. C. You once asked me over a Thai lunch if what we were learning was the "real" thing. I learned back then to be very selective and careful with my answers towards you since it was YOU who put the notion in Joes head that i was some sort of spy when you had asked me my M.A. background prior to SD. You brought it upon yourself to go to Joe and tell him something that i had no knowledge of at the time and it got me scrutinized and looked at as being some sort of "spy" sent to "steal" forms and whatever else the bullsh!t was surrounding all that mess with the students of Dr Ng and Dufresne.(it seems to have been a black mark against me from the beginning and would explain alot)
it was then K.C. that i realized that your role was and still is a self serving one. There are followers and leaders and you sir are a follower ,a self serving follower at that. i cant think of a better example of ego and the inflated nature with which you conduct yourself here on these forums(and i am certainly no saint on these forums either but at least i have some integrity) . i think i and others have learned to keep their distance from you.
so with that i think that debating with you is a lost cause and in the end will go nowhere fast.
how arrogantly presumptious to think that all who have an opinion about this subject are "jealous" or seek to fabricate lies or slander. as i understand it most of the comments here are opinions and statements based on direct experience, or the statements are based from what i would call "reality". but then again and as i have said all too many times before " we live in the reality we have created for ourselves, and everyone's reality seems to greatly differ on certain subjects. strange that everyones reality concerning SD connects in some way or another and supercedes the reality that SD has created for itself.
i wish you well in your current endeavors K.C. and regardless of the differences there has always been respect there, at least from my part and only from a position of martial ability. That's as far as it goes.

TWS

[kwaichang]

TWS, I dont know where you got your info but it is incorrect. I never spoke with Joe about you being any kind of spy. I was in Tennessee at the time you were progressing and was suprised to hear you had quit when I returned to Texas. But I am not self serving except for the fact that I feel what I am learning is the real deal as you did. What changed your mind ?? Was it when you went to fight someone and told me you had a rib broken and was angry that no one wanted to go and fight with you against people who we didnt even know. Well you have to show me why you believe the way you do and if that is self serving so be it. But again you have evaded the question as all on this forum do all is speculation and rumor. Not fact. I was impressed by the fact you were willing to defend the honor of the system. Something must have changed your spirit and I regret that. I train for 0ne reason I love martial artsmore than I can tell you. I live to train and everytimer I train it is like the 1st time I learn something wonderful and new everytime. So think what you will and waste your time if you want but I would love to train with you again and to hear yours and anyones FACT NOT SPECULATION ABOUT sd . KC

[The Willow Sword]

I never spoke with Joe about you being any kind of spy. I was in Tennessee at the time you were progressing and was suprised to hear you had quit when I returned to Texas.

uhh you need to reread my post KC. Actually READ IT.

let me refresh your memory. this was when i had first joined Sd and was just becoming a green belt. i was house sitting for you at the time and at your place we were discussing martial arts back grounds and you had asked me what my prior training was and who it was with, and i told you that i was studying with someone who was taught by Dr Jon ng and who also studied with someone by the name of John Dufresne. Now at the time i had NO idea about all the bullsh!t surrounding the rivalry and i had not had ANY contact with my prior teacher after i left KY to come back to Texas , so i had no idea from him and HE had no idea i had joined the SD school.

So a few days pass and while i am training outside joe confronts me about the convsersation that YOU AND I had about MY martial background. and thats when the accusations started and i felt like i had been covertly fuked with BY YOU.

now was it your intention to be the good sd soldier and report a possible spy in the organization?(which is a lame fukin thing to do anyway) or was there some other motivation on your part? maybe youd care to fill me in on what was going through that big head of yours at the time. frankly i dont care at this point ,,but what it showed me about YOUR character and Integrity is that there IS NONE there and therefore i chose to keep my distance from you.
So DONT even PRESUME to think that you KNOW ME BEST, because you dont.

TWS

[Judge Pen]

I find it hard to believe that this "rivalry" is still getting air-time. For what it is worth, Dufresne has been here on these forms and I have even personally corresponded with him on his accounts of the events. The one thing that was made clear to me is that he regrets the arrogant display of ego on both sides of those events.

As for these two, you have personal issues that are certainly amplified by this petty debate. There will be no agreement so why even debate?

[kwaichang]

TWS You amaze me we correspond privately and you are cordial. Yet in public you cut me or my personality down. I do recall talking to Joe about you and who you trained with but that is all btw I think he asked. I have learned that people make their own assumptions about things as you have about SD.
When we spoke privately you were so near I was going to contact you and meet with you, I am glad you expressed your true feelings. AS for your teacher Ng and the other guy you trained with, other than you I havent even heard of them. As for being a spy why should I care , typically people worry about spies , if they have something to hide, neither I nor SD do. You are hot and cold. I asked you to itemize because of all the people on this forum" I know you best". So again I ask put up or shut up stop using personal feelings to skirt the issue. Just the facts please not speculation or opinion, KC I personally have no personal issue with TWS why he feels how he does is a puzzle to me. KC

[Golden Tiger]

uhhh........mmmkay

So JP, what form(s) did you decide on?

[Judge Pen]

Don't know. Considering how hectic work is right now, I'll probably just do Kwan Dao since I don't have to work it up, it's a nice little form, and its a unique form to SD so it will be judged on its own merits and not how it compares to their Tiger-Crane.