What actually does beat a grappler?

[TenTigers]

Federal Hydra-shocks +P

[Ford Prefect]

Kryptonite, imo.

[Oso]

Federal Hydra-shocks +P

that's a nice load

[Chief Fox]

I think that most grapplers beat themselves.

[Yum Cha]

There are as many ways to beat a grappler as there are to lose to a grappler, to talk about specific techniques is probably irrelevent, but attitude is, as with a wide range of things, quiet effective.

Hesitation. I know I've done it, and I think its a downfall. A grappler comes to grab you and you hesitate to lay on the hurt because he's just grabbing you at that point, or you start to play their game by trying to break a hold.

This is an important forgone opportunity, that's when most grapplers are most vulnerable, when their hands are tied up trying to hold the grip. It may go against your grain to make a hard attack against a seemingly soft attack, but just think about how soft it is as you get balled up and choked out.

Of course, the principle is relevent to any engagement, against any style: attack on the attack and attack to overwhelm and finish.

Does it work all the time, no. Is it a foolproof solution, no. Is it helpful, well, it is for me.

There is something foolproof though against a grappler.... a friend.... :-)

[sihing]

There are as many ways to beat a grappler as there are to lose to a grappler, to talk about specific techniques is probably irrelevent, but attitude is, as with a wide range of things, quiet effective.

Hesitation. I know I've done it, and I think its a downfall. A grappler comes to grab you and you hesitate to lay on the hurt because he's just grabbing you at that point, or you start to play their game by trying to break a hold.

This is an important forgone opportunity, that's when most grapplers are most vulnerable, when their hands are tied up trying to hold the grip. It may go against your grain to make a hard attack against a seemingly soft attack, but just think about how soft it is as you get balled up and choked out.

Of course, the principle is relevent to any engagement, against any style: attack on the attack and attack to overwhelm and finish.

Does it work all the time, no. Is it a foolproof solution, no. Is it helpful, well, it is for me.

There is something foolproof though against a grappler.... a friend.... :-)

This is interesting as in our school, they way My Sifu taught me, a grab or anything similar to that is a non committed attack. If someone grabs my wrist, he is not hurting me by that grab alone, so it is non committed, the other fist or feet are the things that will hurt. But in this scenerio, I have more weapons available, so I hit on this action and defend simultaneously (Wing Chun is my system), reacting to the attack and not the grab, while at the same time attaining a superior position (usually from a blindside) in relationship to my opponent.

Concerning grapplers and getting taken down, we like to use a side neutral stance, so that the lateral movement is superior. Like a train coming down the tracks, you would not turn around and out run it, but go sideways and get off the tracks, letting the force (train) go by. Same with the grappler and the shoot, use side wards movement and a control of some type simultaneously. When their balance is gone, and you can feel it, attack then. Again this is not fool proof and has timing and distancing elements to work out but it is something to consider



James

[paradoxbox]

Rule #1- Grappling does not mean groundfighting.... Grapplers are judoka, bjj, jujutsu, and any other systems that employ throws and joint locks (sambo, systema, etc).

Rule #2- Avoid getting your joints locked... It sort of sounds easier than it is to do in practice, but it's sort of not as well. Sounds strange but that's the way it is. Grapplers will take anything you give em, if you leave your hand out they'll probably lock your wrist or arm up. If they know jujutsu (refers to regular japanese jujutsu from this point on) if you leave your arm out you could findyourself on the receiving end of a shoulder throw that ends with your elbow being broken and you on your back.. It doesn't take much to do that. Keep your limbs close to yourself if you don't want to get hurt against a grappler.

If you're only a striker and don't know any grappling, make sure that the person you're fighting doesn't get any leverage on you. Basically, if they start getting one of their limbs in contact with 2 or more points on 1 of your limbs, they have leverage over you and they can break your limb very easily. I.E. http://www.bujinkanmanchester.co.uk/oni-kudaki.jpg
If you get into a situation like that you're in big trouble.

Don't let a grappler start twisting any of your joints. The moment you perceive them grabbing hold of your limbs, try to get free if you can do it without being injured.

Grappling is very good for in close and medium range work. Watch for wrist and arm/shoulder locks when you're close in, as well as sweeps and hip throws. Almost everyone and their cousin can do osotogari even without judo or jujutsu training. Look out for it because if someone does it hard enough you could wind up spinning upside down and landing on your neck.
http://modliszka.ok.w.interia.pl/osotogari.gif

At greater distances watch for grabs on your extended arms or legs (from punches or kicks) as well as shoulder throws and other high throws. These usually start with the bad guy a few feet away then he takes a big step into you to complete the throw.

For escaping ground grapplers in specific, you should get some BJJ tapes and train at a BJJ studio for a while. Just learn the basic escapes and signs to look for. Learn about sprawling and keeping your center of gravity low, and also about avoiding bjj style takedowns altogether. Learn the habits of bjj students who are not good at takedowns- there's a huge number of bjj students who are great grapplers but suck at actually getting people onto the ground. Come up with a strategy you can use in defense if you see an attacker coming in sloppily to take you down.

[unkokusai]

So, what actually would give you a good chance of beating a grappler? Thanks in advance.

.........ummmm...............grappling.

[unkokusai]

Concerning grapplers and getting taken down, we like to use a side neutral stance, so that the lateral movement is superior. Like a train coming down the tracks, you would not turn around and out run it, but go sideways and get off the tracks, letting the force (train) go by. Same with the grappler and the shoot, use side wards movement and a control of some type simultaneously. When their balance is gone, and you can feel it, attack then.

Yes, I think that if you live in 'slow-motion world' this would be a great idea!

[Mr Punch]

The answer, as has already been said may times, is grappling.

Paradoxbox makes a good point though: against those that will grab limbs keep your limbs in. Some of my aikidoka friends have been very shocked to find out, as I did when I first tried grappling in free sparring, that their demon wristlocks they've practised thousands of times can be neutralised very easily by the extremely complicated 'pulling your arm back and out of the wristlock' movement. Sorry if I'm getting too technical.

Of course what they should do if they meet this counter, which is what any wrestler/b-/j-jjer does in the same situation is follow the pull-back and run over their opponent like a Mac Truck. Harmonise with that! When the 'wa' becomes 'waaaaa'!

But as basic advice for any fighting art I would say that keeping your elbows in (or in good structure if you practise some style where they are out) and not leaving your arms out goes a long way. Karateka, boxers, ('good' TM) wing chun for example always snap their punches back, and the 'snap' back is very important.

It won't help you against a good shoot or whole body attack like, well most in grappling... but it's a start...

Yes, I think that if you live in 'slow-motion world' this would be a great idea!

LMAO, yes, what helps against the shoot is if you are attacked by 80-yr-olds tai-chi-for-healthers, then you can use your super-duper Groucho Marx Kwan sidestep. You will definitely not get run over like roadkill.

[SimonM]

I played with an aikido black belt once. He had never trained in any striking arts while I have split myself between grappling and striking. The guy couldn't do squat to me.

Any serious fighter has to consider all the tools at their disposal. Grappling contains a huge variety of useful tools. So do various striking techniques including a few I've never seen trained for in any kwoon, dojo or dojyang... Like the good old Glasgow Kiss for instance. Very little will distract a grappler more than having their nose spread across their face with their enemy's forehead. Of course I think that's illegal in most NHB matches so that may not be useful... Plus a good grappler will try and control your head quickly. Anyway....

Train striking
Train grappling
Keep you hands in
Come to Shanxi and spar with me!

Basically what a few of the other guys said.

[Becca]

Yes, I think that if you live in 'slow-motion world' this would be a great idea!

Nope. The side nuetral stance works if you seriously train it. Despite the seeming simplicity of this technique, I would classify it is somewhat advanced, because you need to have mastered a whole host of transitions to make it work at will and also for the tricky timming. Strange as it my sound, it is also something of a sticky skill. It is most effective for keeping an attacker from entering your sphere.

One of the biggest misconceptions about side nuetral stance is that it is not static- you don't just stand there. and it is only as good as your transitions. That is probably the most practical part of traditional stance training. It's not for a whork out; it's not to strengthen your legs and core. Those are great secondary benifits, but not the main goal. The main goal is to tech your body and mind how to move in and out of good, rooted, defensable positions without become too vulnerable to attack or counter attack.

[Knifefighter]

Yes, I think that if you live in 'slow-motion world' this would be a great idea!

Well, you've got to consider the fact that sihing doesn't actually spar against experienced grapplers, so his advice is mostly theoretical.

The side neutral stance, or square stance as it is known in grappling, is actually a very good defensive posture- just not the way sihing has described the way he uses it.

[Mr Punch]

I played with an aikido black belt once.

I am one. And I play with myself all the time!

I trained karate at the same time as aiki, and always sparred with other styles. I don't think the probs with aiki particulrly include not striking (they are however too numerous to mention on an unrelated thread!)- some jujutsu styles don't practise striking either and nor does wrestling; but it depends on your aims. This thread is about anti-grappling, but if you're talking mma comps or self-defence the more rounded the better.

... a few I've never seen trained for in any kwoon, dojo or dojyang... Like the good old Glasgow Kiss for instance.

Trained that in my wing chun kwoon, mainly cos I dropped one on my sparring partner and on my teacher in sparring as a reflex action a couple of times and my teacher thought we should deal with it... beautifully suited to wing chun I must say!

The side nuetral stance works if you seriously train it.

Against grapplers? Ie someone trying to throw you or take you down or shoot? No it doesn't. No stance does. What you are doing with your whole body counts - so how you're reacting or being proactive to keep your stance constantly shifting and how you are linking this through the waist/hips to your upper body, and if you're not training with grapplers fairly regularly you won't know how easy it is for them to manipulate you and sucker you into things like over-reliance on any one stance. So basically, it doesn't matter whatever stance you are training unless you are training it against grapplers.

If by 'transitions' and 'don't just stand there' you mean you are in fact changing stances, you may have a better chance, but in that case you're not talking about one 'side neutral stance'. 9 times out of 10 a 'rooted' position will get you taken down at will.

[SevenStar]

Hesitation. I know I've done it, and I think its a downfall. A grappler comes to grab you and you hesitate to lay on the hurt because he's just grabbing you at that point, or you start to play their game by trying to break a hold.

I think you're correct in listing hesitation, but incorrect with the reasoning. it's hesitation to defend the takedown, not hesitation to attack. More often than not, even if you don't hesitate on the attack, you will still get taken down.

This is an important forgone opportunity, that's when most grapplers are most vulnerable, when their hands are tied up trying to hold the grip. It may go against your grain to make a hard attack against a seemingly soft attack, but just think about how soft it is as you get balled up and choked out.

They're not that vulnerable there. It's not like the hands are out stretched and the head is unguarded. by the time the arms wrap around you, they have penetration and their head is beyond the point where you can strike them effectively.