Why I will never try to choke or submit someone on the street.

[jmdrake]

Read my posts (since you quoted them) more carefully.

I posted nothing of a magical knifeproof takedown.

The RNC was not locked in, or the guy would have been choked. Its almost impossible to lock in almost any choke while hanging from the back of a larger opponent.

Reread the INITIAL post carefully! The thug DID choke. But he remained conscious long enough to sink a knife into negative's shoulder.

Positional dominance is required in almost any lock, choke, or strangle.

For the record, being on someone's back with your hooks in is a position of dominance. In fact there's a name for it. It's called "back mount".



Sure, the person is front is seated, but there's nothing to stop him from standing up. However under normal conditions (read, he doesn't have a knife) that doesn't really help him much.

For your clarification, I will repeat:

Making the decision to takeon a big gnarled black boot wearin wallet chain weilding biker guy was a MISTAKE in the first place. The guy was not there to tango with him, it was his decision to fight the larger possibly armed assailant.

And I will repeat NOBODY IS ARGUING AGAINST THAT POINT! Sure, he could have ran and left the boss to his fate. That wouldn't have been nice for the boss, but that would have been an option.

Assuming that the larger gnalred biker guy, who was unarmed, fighting two men, one with a weapon, the other attempting to sink in a choke - would not resort to using a weapon of any kind, specially one in his pocket that he knew about before the conflict, was a MISTAKE.

Again NOBODY IS ARGUING AGAINST THAT POINT. Gee, it must feel good to know you can make obvious points that nobody is disputing.

Attempting to apply any technique from an inferior position was a MISTAKE.

Being on someone's back with hooks in is not an "inferior position". MMA fighters choke out other MMA fighters that way all the time. But knives aren't allowed in MMA.

These were all mistakes that have very little to do with 20/20 hindsight. These are all BASIC self-defense factors that can be discussed, trained, and prepared for long before any street encounter.

The first isn't a "mistake" if the person being attacked is someone you care about. If a 240 lbs biker was attacking my wife or kids I'd take them on even if I KNEW they had a knife. I'd just know going into it that there was a high probability my wife would collect my life insurance policy. (That is, assuming she did the smart thing and ran instead of staying by to help me out.)

The second mistake, yeah that's a mistake but nobody is arguing differently.

The third "mistake", frankly I disagree. Being on someone's back, standing or or the ground, is a superior position. An RNC can be locked in that way. But there's no guarantee you won't get stabbed.

Describe in detail the takedown, control and submission you think would have been "knifeproof".

Now look whos talking "nonsense." 'Round here we call that silly-talk.

A) I never said (before) you were talking "nonsense".

B) You are clearly talking nonsense now.

First you claim that "negative" should have "taken the guy down first". Why? Well since the only thing bad that happened to negative was that he got stabbed than one can only assume you think this would have prevented the stabbing. I'm simply asking you the question "how"? That's a simple question that SHOULD have a simple answer if you aren't just "winging it". An answer like "Well my favorite takedown when someone might have a knife and has their back to me is ....".

There is no-such thing, and no one in this discussion claimed otherwise. What I said (again) was that not taking him down before attempting a choke or lock was wrong.

Wrong because what? Wrong because he got stabbed? So how does your "correct" method prevent the stabbing? Please oh wise one tell us.

Its not right for those of you on the thread to applaud this person for "doing the best he could have" and the such. This was a poor decision, made in the heat of the moment, but still a bad thing to do. Its a bad thing to do even if you dont outnumber and outweapon your opponent.

And your "armchair" advise would have prevented the stabbing how?

Many professionals deal with this exact scenario almost every day. They are not allowed to just walk away, to just pull a gun, or any such actual nonsense. When you outnumber and outgun the bad guy, you put him on the ground and control him - AND YOU EXPECT A WEAPON TO BE INVOLVED OR TO BECOME INVOLVED AT ANY POINT.

Once again, noone is arguing NOT to expect a weapon. So why do you keep belaboring the obvious? But if I think someone might have a knife the LAST place I want to be is on the ground. You think otherwise. I'm just asking why. No reason for you to get all bent out of shape.

so far I haven't heard anything that would have necessarily made any difference.

Maybe today and yesterday were your "not paying attention to the things I read" days on the forum.

I was paying attention. I'm just saying much of what I've read has been BS. What you've written here is no exception.

I'm still trying to figure out how this "magical takedown" would prevent someone from deploying a knife. Tell you what. Find someone who outweighs you by 110 lbs and give him a training knife. Tell him to put it in his pocket. Offer to pay him $100 if he can put it out and cut you with it. But he has to start with his back to you and he can't do anything until he feels you make contact. Let us know how it works out.

Ok, I'm assuming you're being facetious here. Someone already ratted me out as 'one of those kali guys.'

No. I'm actually being serious. That's the only way you could be sure your "choke from the ground" would have made any difference from a standing RNC with hooks in.

Look, according to the original story (which I concede could be BS even with the pics) the biker started going "limp" after 5 seconds. If you "Google" the RNC you'll see most "experts" saying it will work in under 10. Well 5 is less than 10. (Now I'm belaboring the obvious). So if you've taken someone to the ground and you're working a choke that MAY take 10 seconds when "done right" how do you guarantee you won't get stabbed? How do you guarantee you won't get stabbed on the takedown? And if you CAN'T guarantee that, then how can you honestly claim what you're suggesting would have worked any better?

But hey, I'm still waiting to hear your favorite takedown against someone that outweighs you by 110 lbs, has his back to you and may have a knife. Really, is that SO much to ask? Or would you rather continue telling us two things we already know (assume thug has a knife, avoid situation if possible) while asserting something that's simply not true (being on someone's back with hooks in is an "inferior" position)?

And for the record, I'm not sure what being a "kali guy" has to do with it, except for the fact that I'd expect you to be carrying a knife of your own.

Regards,

John M. Drake

[jmdrake]

Where/when/who said anything about a RNC being "invincible" especially against someone with a knife." Or, SO unstoppable ?????

There is no way you are reading the same thread we are posting on.

Ummm...IF YOU READ WHAT I WROTE YOU'D KNOW THAT I WAS TALKING ABOUT BOTH THIS THREAD AND THE BULLSHIDO THREAD!

So feel free to pull your foot out of your mouth at any time now.

If anything, many of us have made the case that a hanging RNC was a poor technique vs someone with a knife. I caught the draft that if there wasent a knife involved, that the RNC would have worked. If you knew your opponent had a knife, why on earth would you hang on his back attempting to apply a choke or submission?

And your "answer" to this is to "do a takedown first". Ooooookaaaay.

Yes. You are clearly confused.

Regards,

John M. Drake

[Tom Kagan]

But hey, I'm still waiting to hear your favorite takedown against someone that outweighs you by 110 lbs, has his back to you and may have a knife. Really, is that SO much to ask?

A surprise frying pan attack is an extremely high percentage takedown (greater than 98%).

Of course, you have to execute it properly. Clearly, negativecr33p's boss had very poor technique.


Regards,

Wile E. Coyote
- Super Genius
- Master, Acme KungFu

[Ultimatewingchun]

"An RNC will put a guy out in less than 10 sec. If he struggles it will be quicker. The technique works great. I used it even before I did BJJ, given that I learned it in Judo I done this personally both in training (some pple just don't know when to tap) and in real fights." (Asia)


***I'VE JUST GOT TO LAUGH at all the remarks like this one.

Yeah...a perfect rnc should put someone out in less than 10 seconds...true.

But the real world is not perfect. Maybe the guy had thick clothes on...or a thick neck...or he turned and tucked so that neither his throat nor a carotid where right there for the taking...or he's a bull against a much lighter guy....or something happened and the choke wasn't applied as quick as it would be under "perfect" conditions by negative.

How many UFC or Pride fights have we seen where someone takes a back and "goes" for the rear naked choke and the other guy fights it off to the point of escaping or manages to survive for 10-15 seconds before tapping? (and this is closer to "perfect" conditions because it's sporting event in a ring with referees - not a real life situation in a closed space after getting hit with a frying pan against a guy who quickly pulled a knife out of his pocket.

[godzillakungfu]

I brought up the BJJ to negativec33p. She crossed posted on another forum, then changed the story. When I said first post it was on another forum my bad. Her initial post was BJJ loses. Hence my grab at the profile and WC/TSD for a total of 4 years training.

I realize now it came across as one style vs another that wasn't my intent.
Anyway I see the point you're driving at, hindsight is 20/20, and that a weapon changes circumsances.

[yenhoi]

Well, since you have "gone there":

So feel free to pull your foot out of your mouth at any time now.

It was you, putting words in my 'mouth' in the very same post that you quoted my post. The audience can see who is not reading. So I think its your mouth from my foot that needs to be removed.

And your "answer" to this is to "do a takedown first". Ooooookaaaay.

You know this is untrue, that I did not say this, its all archived in plain text for us all to look back on. Why would you keep 'saying' that I 'said' stuff that I didnt?

For someone who knows how to use the quote button, this is very funny. I didnt say that, and neither did anyone else. I admit I have not read the bullshido thread, and I dont think its necessary to... Is there an invisible yenhoi posting things that the rest of us cant see, or is this some weird forum game you have decided to start playing recently. You dont think people notice where and when you DID use the quote button? Maybe people dont, but I notice you only quote what was actually posted, and the rest of the outlandish extreme things are just random exaggerations that you have decided to present as truth.

A RNC does not work if you are attempting to do it while hanging from a larger persons back. It was a bad choice of solution in the first place, considering.

Id like you to describe in detail a standing lock or choke that can be applied to a knife weilding opponent, then maybe you can educate us on some techniques that work while hanging from a larger knife weidling opponents back. These are my points that you have somehow glossed over while reading my doppleganger's invisible words.

[Knifefighter]

For the record, being on someone's back with your hooks in is a position of dominance. In fact there's a name for it. It's called "back mount".
Being on someone's back, standing or or the ground, is a superior position.

Being on someone's back with your hooks in is called "stupid" if you are trying to do it when you are standing. Same thing with tryng to finish a RNC when hanging off someone's neck.

Sure, the person is front is seated, but there's nothing to stop him from standing up. However under normal conditions (read, he doesn't have a knife) that doesn't really help him much.

The pressure from the hooks are the control point that will keep the opponent from standing. This should be taught in the first month or two of BJJ classes.

Being on someone's back with hooks in is not an "inferior position". MMA fighters choke out other MMA fighters that way all the time. But knives aren't allowed in MMA.

The hooks in also make it very difficult for the opponent to access a knife if it is in his pocket since the person with the back mount has his thighs pretty much covering the pockets.

I'm simply asking you the question "how"? That's a simple question that SHOULD have a simple answer if you aren't just "winging it".

It does have a simple answer. If you can grab the opponent's neck, all you've got to do is take his legs out (there are several ways to do this taught in most BJJ currriculums), and quickly sink the hooks in to keep him from accessing the knife. From there it is pretty simple to finish the choke, assuming the person has not had practice in defending it.

No. I'm actually being serious. That's the only way you could be sure your "choke from the ground" would have made any difference from a standing RNC with hooks in.

The RNC should be finished on the ground with the hooks in.
Are you sure you’ve been training BJJ for a year? I guess I will have to take back my original statement about the one year BJJ practitioner. Looks like the McDojoization of BJJ has begun.

[Knifefighter]

Of course the RNC choke works, but who knows if this guy didnt have coke or meth running through his veins which would/could have negated the attempted RNC.....!

Drugs have no effect (other than making one more likely to die from the choke) on whether or not a RNC choke works. Cutting off the blood supply to the brain causes unconsciousness whether or not one is on drugs.

[yenhoi]

Its not back mount if the guy is standing. Specially, like you pointed out over and over, if he is 110lbs heavier. That would be what most of us call hanging on a bigger guys back, no school worth anything on earth considers that a control position.

Not getting in the way of the bigger gnarled biker guy who was after the boss man would have gone a long way in preventing the stabbing.

There are many, many takedowns from a rear position, having his opponent on the ground would go a long way towards preventing the knife from being deployed. One or both arms could be controlled or pinned, the pockets could be covered, arms and legs tied up - instead of commiting both arms to a choke. This is even more true because they outnumbered him. He would be much easier to control with two people on the ground then continuting the fight standing.

Wrong because what? Wrong because he got stabbed? So how does your "correct" method prevent the stabbing? Please oh wise one tell us.

Wrong because any choke or submission is low percentage from an inferior position. Hanging on someones back is not backmout. There is no control what-so-ever, only a hold, and a poor one at that, considering the guy was so much bigger. The choke was not locked in at any point, or the guy would be lights out. Thats how you know a choke has worked, when the guy passes out. We all know this. Even with hooks in, being on someones back when they are standing is not a control position in the least. Specially when both arms are tied up attempting a choke.

Wrong because no attempt was made to control before the submission attempt. Knife or no knife.

I justified the takedown because they outnumbered and out-weaponed the guy before he drew a knife. This would be a standard subdue tactic used by any LEO or other persons who deal with this exact scenario almost every day.

Any grappler would rather be in an actual backmount controlling the opponents posture, arms and neck, as opposed to just hanging onto the big guys neck hoping your hold will end up choking the guy. Take the knife out of the scenario and the same self-defense mistakes were made.

I never said that the RNC applied correctly saves you from a knife attack. Taking the guy down and controling his posture and arms would be key to not allowing the weapon to be deployed, or used. I have never said anything would be magical or knife proof.

I'm still waiting to hear your favorite takedown against someone that outweighs you by 110 lbs, has his back to you and may have a knife. Really, is that SO much to ask? Or would you rather continue telling us two things we

A "spine compression throw" where you hold the guys neck, collar of jacket, forehead, and then bend him at nearly any point, ankle, knee, under the thigh, above the hip, in the small of the back, the elbow, under the arm pit, or even cross wise between the shoulders. This is just one takedown of many that could be used against an opponent who has his back turned. Even a bearhug bodyclinch tackle that drove the opponent face first into the ground or wall would be better then just holding on.

No. I'm actually being serious. That's the only way you could be sure your "choke from the ground" would have made any difference from a standing RNC with hooks in.

Well, then I was being sarcastic. Your scenario is how most kali people (should ) train knife, and find out that attempting to submit a standing fighting opponent is low-percentage, knife or no knife.

I also think we are victums of some cross-posting, but that doesnt matter, you are still trying to put words in my mouth in the very same posts where you use the quote button...

[Asia]

"An RNC will put a guy out in less than 10 sec. If he struggles it will be quicker. The technique works great. I used it even before I did BJJ, given that I learned it in Judo I done this personally both in training (some pple just don't know when to tap) and in real fights." (Asia)


***I'VE JUST GOT TO LAUGH at all the remarks like this one.

Yeah...a perfect rnc should put someone out in less than 10 seconds...true.

But the real world is not perfect. Maybe the guy had thick clothes on...or a thick neck...or he turned and tucked so that neither his throat nor a carotid where right there for the taking...or he's a bull against a much lighter guy....or something happened and the choke wasn't applied as quick as it would be under "perfect" conditions by negative.

Wow you just proved you're FULL OF ****.

I never said it needs to be PERFECT nor does it have to be. If you can manage to cut of the cartoid artiers it doesn't have to be textbook.

How many UFC or Pride fights have we seen where someone takes a back and "goes" for the rear naked choke and the other guy fights it off to the point of escaping or manages to survive for 10-15 seconds before tapping? (and this is closer to "perfect" conditions because it's sporting event in a ring with referees - not a real life situation in a closed space after getting hit with a frying pan against a guy who quickly pulled a knife out of his pocket.

Have you really watched these fights. Because I see, from and extensive collection and from personal expereince in MMA, BJJ/Subwrestling, that pple will tap quickly when the realize the RNC is sunk in and its within 10 secs.

Also reread the post you got your account of the events in this "fight" off.

[Merryprankster]

Asia,

You're actually cutting off the jugular veins. Backpressure prevents oxygenated blood from reaching the brain. The Carotids are pretty deep... This is why you turn pink/purple instead of looking like a bled carcass .

On a related note, but still keeping myself out of this mess, I have choked out 4 people with blood chokes. And I mean OUT.

It took considerably less than 10 seconds in all cases.

[Asia]

Asia,

You're actually cutting off the jugular veins. Backpressure prevents oxygenated blood from reaching the brain. The Carotids are pretty deep... This is why you turn pink/purple instead of looking like a bled carcass .

On a related note, but still keeping myself out of this mess, I have choked out 4 people with blood chokes. And I mean OUT.

It took considerably less than 10 seconds in all cases.

Hey MP,

You're right its Jugular. I meant to put that instead of CA. My bad.

[anerlich]

I suppose it's just as gusty for negative to post his story at a hostile place like bullshido

Judging from some posts on here, I'd say this place is every bit as hostile as bullshido.

Jeez, the poor guy finds himself in a dangerous situation through no fault of his own, tells his story warts and all so that other people can learn from what he perceives are his mistakes, and this vociferous armchair quarterbacking starts, and apparently never ends.

Props to negativecreep for doing the best he could in a bad situation, and the guts to post about it on this forum, though it was obvious that it would do him little good.

[Asia]

Judging from some posts on here, I'd say this place is every bit as hostile as bullshido.

Jeez, the poor guy finds himself in a dangerous situation through no fault of his own, tells his story warts and all so that other people can learn from what he perceives are his mistakes, and this vociferous armchair quarterbacking starts, and apparently never ends.

Props to negativecreep for doing the best he could in a bad situation, and the guts to post about it on this forum, though it was obvious that it would do him little good.

If you read the Bullshido thread it was actually posted as Brazilian Jiu Jitus Looses. Which sparked some hostility when the NC said SHE didn't train BJJ. And it also called into question if she did a decent RNC despite confusing it with an AIR choke which it isn't.

So to recap a girl jumps on a guy that has 110lbs on her and gets stabbed and whacked with a frying pan orginally attriubted this loss to BJJ not working instead of 1) not applying a technique properly and 2) getting into a situations where she was already at a huge disadvantage.

[anerlich]

Negative, sorry for the gender misunderstanding.

I don't need to read the Bullshido thread to conclude that this forum is as potentially hostile as any other on the web and more than most.

So to recap a girl jumps on a guy that has 110lbs on her and gets stabbed and whacked with a frying pan orginally attriubted this loss to BJJ not working instead of 1) not applying a technique properly and 2) getting into a situations where she was already at a huge disadvantage.

She's very brave, huh?

Or are you suggesting some other less attractive character trait? Shame on you.