Why I will never try to choke or submit someone on the street.

[Asia]

I don't need to read the Bullshido thread to conclude that this forum is as potentially hostile as any other on the web and more than most.

I didn't say you had to for that. I said you should read the other thread to understand where some of the hostility came from.

Or are you suggesting some other less attractive character trait? Shame on you.

What are you trying get at?

I simply recaped the story.

[Banjos_dad]

or when they are wearing a heavy coat like one of those wanksta style puffed out NFL parkas from the 90's... can't compress it enough to seal off the blood flow because the puffiness just keeps "giving."

you wind up having to throw the guy down & switch to impact moves.

damm though Negative, ouch! that's one heck of an account. i hope you didn't lose any mobility or anything with that wound.

[jmdrake]

Being on someone's back with your hooks in is called "stupid" if you are trying to do it when you are standing. Same thing with tryng to finish a RNC when hanging off someone's neck.

Funny but I've seen quite a few people do this "stupid" move successfully in MMA.

The pressure from the hooks are the control point that will keep the opponent from standing. This should be taught in the first month or two of BJJ classes.

The pressure from the hooks are to keep the other person from escaping either by flipping you over (if you're on his back) or escaping to the side (if your on your back). I'm not sure why you're worrying about the opponent "standing" because that alone won't get him out of the choke. If he's standing and you don't have your hooks in he can flip you. If your hooks are in he can't.

The hooks in also make it very difficult for the opponent to access a knife if it is in his pocket since the person with the back mount has his thighs pretty much covering the pockets.

And if it's in his boot? If he has it in his jacket pocket? If he pulled the knife out while you were taking him down? Lots of variables there.

It does have a simple answer. If you can grab the opponent's neck, all you've got to do is take his legs out (there are several ways to do this taught in most BJJ currriculums), and quickly sink the hooks in to keep him from accessing the knife. From there it is pretty simple to finish the choke, assuming the person has not had practice in defending it.

And while you're taking his legs out he has time to pull the knife. While your trying to get the hooks sunk in he has time to pull the knife. And the initial part of choke defense is "common reaction". Before I was shown the "proper" way to defend a choke I knew to tuck my neck and grab the opponents arm because that just seems like the "right thing to do".

The RNC should be finished on the ground with the hooks in.
Are you sure you’ve been training BJJ for a year? I guess I will have to take back my original statement about the one year BJJ practitioner. Looks like the McDojoization of BJJ has begun.

Funny ha ha. Most RNCs are finished from the ground because you usually don't get a CHANCE to go for one when someone's standing up. No, we don't "train" standing RNCs and it's for that very reason. But I've seen them pulled off in MMA. That's the "gold standard" for you right genius? The defenders usually try to slam the opponent into the cage. Or in one case I saw the defender "flip" onto the ground. But to no avail. The RNC held. I'm sure you (super non "McDojo" BJJ knifefighter with ZERO pro MMA record) could have coached these guys out of the RNC since you know everything. Then again...maybe not.

Regards,

John M. Drake

[jmdrake]

Ok yenhoi, step back, take a few DEEP breaths, then reply.

Well, since you have "gone there":

So feel free to pull your foot out of your mouth at any time now.

It was you, putting words in my 'mouth' in the very same post that you quoted my post. The audience can see who is not reading. So I think its your mouth from my foot that needs to be removed.

And your "answer" to this is to "do a takedown first". Ooooookaaaay.

You know this is untrue, that I did not say this, its all archived in plain text for us all to look back on. Why would you keep 'saying' that I 'said' stuff that I didnt?

This is what you DID say!

Three initial problems:...
You went for a choke on the street from someone’s back without taking them down or hitting them, without any semblance of control.

So please explain the difference between saying "without taking them down" and "do a takedown first"? Clearly you think the choke would have worked better if it wasn't done "without a takedown first". Getting rid of the double negative and we have "do a takedown first". Maybe that's not what you meant, but that's clearly what you implied. But notice I PHRASED THIS AS A QUESTION! You understand the difference between a question and a quote right? No, I guess you don't. Now I have to give knifefighter at least SOME props for backing up his argument instead of taking the "I didn't say that" cop out from something that can CLEARLY BE IMPLIED by what you DID say.

For someone who knows how to use the quote button, this is very funny. I didnt say that, and neither did anyone else. I admit I have not read the bullshido thread, and I dont think its necessary to...

And yet when I didn't refer to you directly (when talking about people acting like the RNC was "invincible") you automatically assumed I was.

Is there an invisible yenhoi posting things that the rest of us cant see, or is this some weird forum game you have decided to start playing recently.

The "forum game" is trying to pretend there's some big difference between saying negative "made a mistake" for attempting a choke "without doing a take down first" and saying "do a takedown first".

You dont think people notice where and when you DID use the quote button?

You don't think people notice where you said "without a takedown first?"

Maybe people dont, but I notice you only quote what was actually posted, and the rest of the outlandish extreme things are just random exaggerations that you have decided to present as truth.

"Wild exagerration" my eye! Either he should have done a takedown first or not. Either a takedown would have helped his chances of pulling of the choke or not. Make up your mind. Take a position and stick to it.

A RNC does not work if you are attempting to do it while hanging from a larger persons back. It was a bad choice of solution in the first place, considering.

And yet, with hooks in (you left that out in your above description) I have seen it work in MMA. Still your choice would be to "do a takedown first"? Oh, and notice the question mark behind the quote. In other words I AM ASKING YOU A QUESTION! Now, rather than assuming I'm "putting words in your mouth" you could just say "no that's not what I meant". Then you could explain whatever it is you meant, because that's really not clear.

Id like you to describe in detail a standing lock or choke that can be applied to a knife weilding opponent, then maybe you can educate us on some techniques that work while hanging from a larger knife weidling opponents back.

And I'd like you to describe in detail how an RNC on the ground might be applied to an opponent that pulled his knife while you were taking him down. I won't let you get away with knifefigher's "the hooks will stop him from pulling his knife" argument since that weakly assumes the thug didn't start pulling his knife until you A) got him on the ground and B) managed to sink your hooks in.

Really, I haven't claimed to have an answer here. I haven't said anyone made a "mistake". You are (apparently) the one that thinks negative could have had a better outcome by following your advice with regard to takedowns and chokes. (And I won't even bother to ask what that advice is for fear of offending you and you thinking I'm "putting words in your mouth".)

Hey, I'd love to hear some takedowns that prevent someone from deploying a knife. Knifefighters "grab their neck and take out their legs" takedown leaves both arms free during the entire move. Silly old "McDojo BJJ" me says "but can't he still pull his knife"?

These are my points that you have somehow glossed over while reading my doppleganger's invisible words.

Riiiiight. Your "doppleganger" who said that the choke shouldn't be done "without a takedown". Oh wait a minute. That was YOU.

Anyway, what you AND knifefighter seem to be overlooking is that the choke was (again ACCORDING TO THE STORY) working! 5 seconds into the choke the thugs legs were starting to buckle. Now most realistic estimates I've seen for completed an RNC is 10 seconds. I'll grant that "negative" didn't have a stopwatch and can't say for sure exactly HOW long it was taking. I'll also grant the possibility that he made the whole story up (though with pics I doubt that). But if we consider the POSSIBILITY yes the POSSIBILITY that it actually WAS working then he was getting results just as fast as other people report getting them on the ground. More importantly 5 seconds, 10 seconds and DEFINITELY 30 seconds is long enough to pull a knife. When you add into that factor X number of seconds it takes to complete the takedown of someone much bigger than you....well I just don't like those odds. Maybe you, knifie and your "doppleganger" do.

Regards,

John M. Drake

[jmdrake]

Have you really watched these fights. Because I see, from and extensive collection and from personal expereince in MMA, BJJ/Subwrestling, that pple will tap quickly when the realize the RNC is sunk in and its within 10 secs.

Right. And most of these (well ALL of these) people don't have a knife and don't consider it a "fight to the death". If I feel someone has a choke locked in and there's really nothing I can do I'll tap rather than sit there and "go unconscious". But that's different from if I was on the street and thought there might be "no walking away from this one" AND if I had a knife. Really, think about it. I have to have a hand free to "tap" right? If I have that hand free and if I can get to my knife I can slice/stab just as easily as I can "tap".

And I think that's the point that's gotten lost on some in this thread (you know who you are. ) Again, assuming the story is accurate (meaning "not BS" and meaning negative got the details right) the choke was WORKING! Maybe it SHOULDN'T have worked (though I've seen standing chokes work in MMA) but it was. But with a knife in the mix you really have no guarantees. (And before some idiot claims I said someone used the "guarantee" word I've clearly not said that).

Anyway, until someone actually gets a training knife and "tests" the scenario we're all just "armchair quarterbacking" regardless of what we think we know.

Regards,

John M. Drake

[jmdrake]

Oh, and for the record, he're someone finishing a standing rear naked choke in UFC 45. I guess he must be a "McDojo" BJJ fighter huh?


http://www.boxing-pics.com/ufc45_rev...and_ufc45.html

A wild night celebrating the 10th anniversary of the UFC was capped off by welterweight champion, Matt Hughes making the fifth successful defense of his title, by choking out upstart challenger Frank Trigg with a standing rear naked choke at 3:54 of the first round.

Trigg started quickly and surprised Hughes, taking him to the mat quickly, and the two put on a tremendous display of wrestling skills. Hughes superior wrestling skills began to take over as he prevented Trigg for doing any damage and was able to lift Trigg to his shoulders while parading around the ring almost posing for photographers and fans alike before depositing Trigg hard onto the mat. Trigg was able to once again fend off Hughes from the bottom position and once again reversed things.

Quick as lightning, Hughes was able to seize a small opening and take Trigg’s back, as Trigg rose clawing at Hughes hands, Hughes was able to snap in a standing rear naked choke. Trigg was left defenseless and tapped out as his legs gave way and both fighters crashed to the canvas. With the win, Hughes moves his MMA record to 30-3. Trigg’s MMA record falls to 7-2.

Regards,

John M. Drake

[Edmund]

LOL at gabe. The critics are saying DONT fight big giant biker guys. The critics are saying to ALWAYS expect a knife or other weapon of some kind, and the critics are saying that hanging from some larger guy's back trying to choke him was a bad idea. These were the things that lead to getting stabbed.

If the critics wouldn’t have gotten involved in the first place, how would they have been killed?

Yenhoi, you're the one criticizing negativecreep's actions.

I just pointed out it was stupid to criticize him.

1. You weren't there. You don't know what the other guy was like (strength, speed, fighting ability). Or how quick it happened.

2. It's criticism in hindsight. Knowing after the event that he's got a concealed knife and a history of violent assault.

3. He was hit with a frying pan. Hit yourself with a frying pan and start the decisionmaking process.

It's all so easy when you aren't actually the person in the situation.

[Knifefighter]

Funny but I've seen quite a few people do this "stupid" move successfully in MMA
That's the "gold standard" for you right genius?

While MMA is a great laboratory for seeing how different techniques and strategies can be applied, one has to have the intelligence to realize that some things you might do in a MMA setting, you would not want to do in a real SD situation. A standing choke is one of those. Trying to choke someone out with the hooks in while standing gives you a very high probability of getting slammed into a very hard surface with the full brunt of the opponent’s weight on top of you… not good if the opponent is bigger than you and/or you have a hard surface to land on.

The pressure from the hooks are to keep the other person from escaping either by flipping you over (if you're on his back) or escaping to the side (if your on your back). .

Using the hooks, one wants to extend the opponent out if he tries to stand.

I'm not sure why you're worrying about the opponent "standing" because that alone won't get him out of the choke.

Because you have a high risk of getting slammed. It’s the same reason you don’t hold a triangle if someone stands up.

If he pulled the knife out while you were taking him down?

Very hard to get the blade out while you are being taken down if the guy has your back and knows much about takedowns. Grab a wrestler and give him a back grip. See if you can get the knife out on the way down.

And while you're taking his legs out he has time to pull the knife. While your trying to get the hooks sunk in he has time to pull the knife.

Try it. I think you'll find it is much harder than you think.

And the initial part of choke defense is "common reaction". Before I was shown the "proper" way to defend a choke I knew to tuck my neck and grab the opponents arm because that just seems like the "right thing to do".

Defending the choke requires you to use both hands. Hard to get the blade when you are doing that. Going for the knife makes the choke work faster because you are no longer protecting the neck.

Anyway, until someone actually gets a training knife and "tests" the scenario we're all just "armchair quarterbacking" regardless of what we think we know.

I've been playing with this type of stuff for 20 + years now and I've found if you've got the neck from behind and halfway decent takedown skills from there, there's almost no way the guy is getting the blade out on the way down, especially if its in his pocket. Same thing once you hit the ground, if you know enough about ground positioning and weapons control.

Too bad your BJJ curriculum isn't teaching you about what happens when weapons come into play when grappling and groundfighting.

[yenhoi]

Standing submissions are low percentage and highly poor choice of solution for a self-defense situation. I think keeping the fight standing when he outnumbered and out-weaponed his opponent was a mistake. Attempting a RNC while hanging from the back of his larger opponent was a bad decision. Attempting a RNC in a possible weapon situtation, standing or on the ground is a bad idea.

No one on this thread has claimed a solution that would be knife proof or magical. No one claimed a new type of takedown that would prevent someone in all scenarios from deploying their weapon. There are lots of things that can and should be done in these types of scenarios to minimize the ability and opporatunity for the opponent to deploy a weapon and/or use it.

You went for a choke on the street from someone’s back without taking them down or hitting them, without any semblance of control.

These words were exactly what I meant when I typed them. DO not go for submissions without first taking them down or hitting them. Control and dominant position are two vital element when attempting a submission. Many holds work standing up, but you must still have dominant position and control over your opponent. In both UFC's you posted, neither man was able to improve his posture or otherwise conter the standing/hanging RNC because the other man had complete control. Neither of those men had any sort of weight advantage.

Hopefully I have cleared any confusion I caused by not taking any deep breaths.

I was not trying to say that a takedown is the answer to a knife weilding opponent. My point was that any opponent, knife or not, is easier to control on the ground, and that it would have better for him to have ground his opponent being that him and his boss outnumbered him. The more options you can take away from the bad guys the better. Hanging out of some big guys back trying to choke him is a bad way to deal with a real self-defense situation. I believe that in any encounter you should always be working for better position and control, long before you attempt any sort of submission. I also think you should be constantly pounding away at your opponent, and using any weapons of your own.

[negativecr33p]

Yenhoi, you're the one criticizing negativecreep's actions.

I just pointed out it was stupid to criticize him.

1. You weren't there. You don't know what the other guy was like (strength, speed, fighting ability). Or how quick it happened.

2. It's criticism in hindsight. Knowing after the event that he's got a concealed knife and a history of violent assault.

3. He was hit with a frying pan. Hit yourself with a frying pan and start the decisionmaking process.

It's all so easy when you aren't actually the person in the situation.

Haha, I love it. I wanna do the hitting though. I'll even turn my back and see if he can put me out with an RNC before I stab him to. End this argument once and for all.

[negativecr33p]

Standing submissions are low percentage and highly poor choice of solution for a self-defense situation. I think keeping the fight standing when he outnumbered and out-weaponed his opponent was a mistake. Attempting a RNC while hanging from the back of his larger opponent was a bad decision. Attempting a RNC in a possible weapon situtation, standing or on the ground is a bad idea.

No one on this thread has claimed a solution that would be knife proof or magical. No one claimed a new type of takedown that would prevent someone in all scenarios from deploying their weapon. There are lots of things that can and should be done in these types of scenarios to minimize the ability and opporatunity for the opponent to deploy a weapon and/or use it.

You went for a choke on the street from someone’s back without taking them down or hitting them, without any semblance of control.

These words were exactly what I meant when I typed them. DO not go for submissions without first taking them down or hitting them. Control and dominant position are two vital element when attempting a submission. Many holds work standing up, but you must still have dominant position and control over your opponent. In both UFC's you posted, neither man was able to improve his posture or otherwise conter the standing/hanging RNC because the other man had complete control. Neither of those men had any sort of weight advantage.

Hopefully I have cleared any confusion I caused by not taking any deep breaths.

I was not trying to say that a takedown is the answer to a knife weilding opponent. My point was that any opponent, knife or not, is easier to control on the ground, and that it would have better for him to have ground his opponent being that him and his boss outnumbered him. The more options you can take away from the bad guys the better. Hanging out of some big guys back trying to choke him is a bad way to deal with a real self-defense situation. I believe that in any encounter you should always be working for better position and control, long before you attempt any sort of submission. I also think you should be constantly pounding away at your opponent, and using any weapons of your own.

Ughhh it seems you're all focusing to much on each others arguments and not what happened. We were litterally in between a wall and a big hanging tv, had I taken the dude down from behind and made him fall forward, my boss's head would have gone through a television, any other way he would have grabbed the sink for stability.

The only reason I kept the standing choke, knowing full well he could slam me, was my boss was infront of him trying to keep him from getting enough space to do so. Why he stuttered every other word underneath the sun besides ****ign "KNIFE" when he saw the knife, I will never ever know.

Like I said before, had he not stabbed me, I feel about 80-90% confident I/we would have won the confrontation easily, even if he hadn't passed out, he would have been EXTREMELY weak after another few seconds of the choke.

And please, don't give me any **** about your knees covering someones pockets so they can't get to a knife....my legs were wrapped around that big ass mother ****er whichever way they could fit.

[yenhoi]

I was critisizing your decisions leading up to the stabbing. It was not negative. There was already a pile of mouth candy when I began responding to this thread.

People keep suggesting that its a good idea to train this exact scenario in your everyday training. I agree. This type of training should be in everyones normal training.

I wasent critisizing in hindsight, I pointed out three basic self-defense topics that should have been approached differently. We can all justify all we want that what really happened just happened and there was no way to change it, hay at least at least no one died - but thats not the case. Self-defense should not be approached in this hap-hazzard, shoot from the hip, manner. There are variables that you can address and affect the total outcome.

Im not saying you had to take him down, but if your idea was to end the encounter with a submission/choke, then you should have. Submitting from inferior position is a bad idea in sport or the street. There is generally always something better to do then hold on and hope.

Expecting a weapon does not fall into the category of hindsight. Generally, weapons should always be expected and addressed. Always, in every scenario and encounter.

..and not fighting the guy or at least waiting until he was commited to pounding the second guy is not hindsight. This is a basic evasion/deception tactic that sounds like it could have been employed. You ended up behind the guy anyways.

Getting hit with a frying pan and other consequences of being involved in a real life encounter dont then absolve you from looking at the scenario carefully and truthfully afterwards.

You did a good job by not getting killed. You won when it came to survival. You said yourself you would do things differently. It goes without saying that things went wrong and didnt go your way - you went to work one day and got stabbed by a biker. In any three minute round, tournament match, or real life encounter of any sort you can always look back and find the things that went wrong, and things that you did wrong.

[jmdrake]

While MMA is a great laboratory for seeing how different techniques and strategies can be applied, one has to have the intelligence to realize that some things you might do in a MMA setting, you would not want to do in a real SD situation. A standing choke is one of those. Trying to choke someone out with the hooks in while standing gives you a very high probability of getting slammed into a very hard surface with the full brunt of the opponent’s weight on top of you… not good if the opponent is bigger than you and/or you have a hard surface to land on.

LOL at you now trying to take on the "street versus sport" argument that's usually used against you.

Anyway, slams are irrelavent to what we're talking about. Seriously, did biker thug attempt a slam? No. So that has nothing to do with what I'm trying to get at which is to minimize the chances of what REALLY happened. (Negative getting stabbed.) The only legitimate questions if we're looking at minimizing the possibility of being stabbed are:

A) Would an RNC on the ground be finished faster than a standing one? If so by how many seconds? (Seems to me it's about 10 seconds either way.)

B) Would an RNC on the ground make it harder to be able to pull a knife? Well..it depends. If the knife's in the back pocket, certainly if you have the opponent sitting on his butt he can't get to his knife. On the flipside if it's a boot knife it's easier to reach it from a grounded position, since you don't have to bend down.

Furthermore a slam simply isn't a good defense for an RNC. It MIGHT work and it MIGHT not. The only way it will work is if the choker gets knocked out. Personal story. In high school when we playing "no pads" tackle football someone much bigger than me by picking him up falling back with him falling on top. It knocked the snot out of me. (Litterally. I had a cold and this cleared my nose). Anyway, the bottom line is I wasn't knocked unconscious. Ok, this was outside in the grass which is softer than concrete but harder than mats in a ring. Anyway, if you have an RNC in and someone slams you like that and you're NOT knocked out, you'll still have the choke in. You'll also be in the standard position where the choke is normally finished.

Also note that if you feel someone getting ready to fall back you can always drop one or both of your feet to the ground. Note in the pic I posted the person executing the choke has only one hook in. The other is (most likely) on the ground. That way he can stop the person from choking from flipping him (a high percentage way to beat an RNC) or slamming him.

Using the hooks, one wants to extend the opponent out if he tries to stand.

Well we extend the opponent, but that has nothing to do with him standing. Nobody at my school would be dumb enough to try to stand to get out of an RNC.

Because you have a high risk of getting slammed. It’s the same reason you don’t hold a triangle if someone stands up.

That's even LESS relevant then your first point. In a triangle choke slamming is good because even if you don't knock the other guy out with the slam, you'll likely get him to loosen up from the force of the slam (as opposed to an RNC slam which leaves the other person locked in). Also even if the slam doesn't work, you're in no worse position than before you tried it. And the person in the triangle doesn't have the option of doing a move that stops the slam but keeps the choke (like the person in the RNC does by dropping one or both feet to the floor.)

Very hard to get the blade out while you are being taken down if the guy has your back and knows much about takedowns. Grab a wrestler and give him a back grip. See if you can get the knife out on the way down.

How about I grab a whitebelt that weighs 100 lbs less than me and let him try? Also a "back grip" is quite different from that stuff you were describing (grabbing neck and going for the legs? Okay.) Anyway, I turn my back in sparring all the time when I attempt a throw. Sometimes I get the throw. Sometimes I get the counter. When I'm countered there's an opportunity for me to get taken down. Sometimes I get taken down, sometimes I don't. Those times I don't get taken down I'm pretty sure I could pull a knife if I hand one on me. Then after the takedown you STILL have to lock in some type of submission that either A) controls my knife arm (and you don't know what arm that is) or B) puts me out before I can pull a knife. But that puts us back to square 1.

Try it. I think you'll find it is much harder than you think.

You try your takedown against someone that outweighs you by 110 lbs and who's skill level is comparible to yours. I think you'll find it much harder than you think.

Defending the choke requires you to use both hands. Hard to get the blade when you are doing that. Going for the knife makes the choke work faster because you are no longer protecting the neck.

Ok. Now I have to ask if YOU are "McDojo". Or maybe you just haven't been keeping up with the "state of the art". One thing I learned early on was when in back mount trying to sink an RNC (or do anything else) NEVER cross your ankles. Why? Because someone can easily put their leg over your ankles, ankle lock you, and tap you out fast. Nothing sucks worse than getting tapped when you were going for a "sure" submission or choke. Now, you may ask "what does this have to do with what I said?" Simple. GOOD BJJ will sometimes cross your legs for you and then go for the ankle lock. To do this they have to drop both of their hands from defending the RNC. How can they afford to do this? Simple. As long as you can keep your chin tucked you won't get choked out by an RNC. It will just hurt your jaw, but that's it. I've defended the RNC and had my own RNC defended by a chin tuck enough times to know this is absolutely true. So, if someone can drop both hands long enough to cross your legs and ankle lock you then [b]certainly[b] they can drop one hand long enough to pull out a knife. This certainty is only increased when the person pulling the knife is MUCH bigger and stronger than the person doing the choke.

I've been playing with this type of stuff for 20 + years now and I've found if you've got the neck from behind and halfway decent takedown skills from there, there's almost no way the guy is getting the blade out on the way down, especially if its in his pocket. Same thing once you hit the ground, if you know enough about ground positioning and weapons control.

And here we go with the "I've been doing this for (fill in the blank years)" nonsense. If you've done this for 20 years and don't know about tucking your chin on an RNC and going for an ankle lock, well you're due for a refresher course.

Too bad your BJJ curriculum isn't teaching you about what happens when weapons come into play when grappling and groundfighting.

There's only so many hours in a day, days in a week, weeks in a month ect. Hey, maybe you know a lot about knives. But you've got somethings to learn about the RNC.

Regards,

John M. Drake

[Knifefighter]

John-
I've been training BJJ for 12 years and am a black belt.
You've been training for less than a year and are "almost" a blue belt.
I probably know more about the just the RNC than you do of BJJ altogether.

As far as the state of the art, it is pretty much the “backpack” method of setting up the RNC popularized by Marcello Garcia- a master of finishing from the back.
And for a perfect example of why you don’t want to take the back while standing against a bigger opponent, all you have to do is watch 150 lb. Garcia try to do it against a standing 250 lb. Ricco Rodriguez in the 2005 ADDC world championship absolute division. Rodriguez slammed Garcia’s brains into the mat from there. The only reason Garcia tried it there was because he thought slamming was against the rules.

95% of working out of the RNC is about hand control. One of the first things taught in BJJ is to always protect your neck with your hands- novice level principles.
You drop your hands to work the ankle cross submission and you will be choked out before you are able to get halfway there if you are doing it against someone who has a clue about what they are doing.A good BJJ guy will work to cross your ankles without stopping from defending with his hands.

What BJJ school are you training at that they are teaching you to drop your hands to work that submission?

[Knifefighter]

LOL at you now trying to take on the "street versus sport" argument that's usually used against you.

I've never claimed the sport is the same as the street. My position is that sport is a good laboratory and that there are similarities between the two. Sport is also closer to the street than only training in your studio against your training partners. Sport fighters also usually make better street fighters than those who have only trained in the studio.

Would an RNC on the ground be finished faster than a standing one?

Yes, because the control is better.

B)

Would an RNC on the ground make it harder to be able to pull a knife? Well..it depends. If the knife's in the back pocket, certainly if you have the opponent sitting on his butt he can't get to his knife. On the flipside if it's a boot knife it's easier to reach it from a grounded position, since you don't have to bend down.

Yes, always... because the person on the back has the option of trapping one or both arms with the leg(s). Many BJJ chokes are finished by trapping an arm to take away one of the defending hands.

Furthermore a slam simply isn't a good defense for an RNC. It MIGHT work and it MIGHT not. The only way it will work is if the choker gets knocked out.

But it's a great start. Most escapes from the RNC require your opponent's back to be on the ground. A great way to get him there and soften him up along the way is to slam him into the ground. Putting your hooks in from a standing position is completely stupid in a street situation.

In high school when we playing "no pads" tackle football someone much bigger than me by picking him up falling back with him falling on top. It knocked the snot out of me. (Litterally. I had a cold and this cleared my nose). Anyway, the bottom line is I wasn't knocked unconscious. Ok, this was outside in the grass which is softer than concrete but harder than mats in a ring. Anyway, if you have an RNC in and someone slams you like that and you're NOT knocked out, you'll still have the choke in. You'll also be in the standard position where the choke is normally finished.

And he'll be in the standard position for escaping if he knows how. The difference will be the same as your experience, he will knock the snot out of you before escaping.

Also note that if you feel someone getting ready to fall back you can always drop one or both of your feet to the ground.

Again, I will refer you to Garcia vs. Rodriguez. There was no time to get the hooks out.

Well we extend the opponent, but that has nothing to do with him standing. Nobody at my school would be dumb enough to try to stand to get out of an RNC.

That's because you only train for sport. Slamming is illegal in most sport competitions. Standing (assuming your oppnent doesn't know how to stop you from doing this), slamming, and then working the back escape is a devastating way to escape the RNC.

And the person in the triangle doesn't have the option of doing a move that stops the slam but keeps the choke (like the person in the RNC does by dropping one or both feet to the floor.)

Actually, he does, and it's an even more realistic defense than the one you are proposing, but that is getting off the subject so I won't go there.

How about I grab a whitebelt that weighs 100 lbs less than me and let him try? Also a "back grip" is quite different from that stuff you were describing (grabbing neck and going for the legs?

The neck grip is even more effective than the back grip. Go ahead and have someone significantly lighter than you grab you around the neck (forearm across the neck with a three finger, clasp or Gable grip with the other hand). Now try to access your knife from your pocket as he kicks into the back of your knee and pulls back into your neck with full force. Let me know how it turns out and how long before your neck is back to normal.

You try your takedown against someone that outweighs you by 110 lbs and who's skill level is comparible to yours. I think you'll find it much harder than you think.

Been there, done that a few times, but it is very hard on the neck.

As long as you can keep your chin tucked you won't get choked out by an RNC.

Again, I have to ask where are you training that they are not teaching you how to get the RNC when your opponent has only the chin tucked and no hand control?

Here are couple of things you can try out the next time someone drops his hands from defending while you are back mounted... one arm pulls back on the forehead (or under the nose if you are in a MMA match, or into the eyes if there are no rules) while the other slides under the chin, transition into a three finger or standard clasp grip and then into the RNC.