The system of clf

[extrajoseph]

joseph,

actually this is not my thought. I only echoed it.

I personally feel that Jeong Yim called his art what ever he wanted to.

However, according to the elders who are still in their 90's now, who lived during a time when CLF was striving, that Jeong Yim didn't call his art CLF. It was other sifu's who recognized Jeong Yim's art as having elements of Choy Ga, Lee Ga, and Fut ga.

You want to believe in words that were written by a dead guy, but here we have a living CLF legend in two places who recount the history. According to one of them it was a possibility that Jeong Yim's art since it was a combination of Lee Yau San, Chan Heung, and Monk Ching Cho....that his art was in its original state was "possibly" (i say possibly-not them) that Jeong Yims art was called Hung Sing Kuen.

You don't research Jeong Yim's history Joseph. I do. When It comes to what the elders say about my lineage I will listen. it doesn't mean i will believe everything i hear, but it doesn't mean i will discount it. For example, if someone in the Fut San HSK tried tell me that Jeong Yim created the jongs then I would have to tell them that is wrong because even I think Koon Pak had a big thing to do with the promotion of CLF jongs.

But like the bible and GOD, there is more to Jeong Yim than is really known. It is up to us to figure out what is missing.

see, I still see Chan Heung as starting CLF. But he kept his real CLF for his bloodline. Jeong Yim took what he learned from Chan Heung, and based his gung fu off of the latters gung fu as well as ching cho's and Lee Yau sans. But i also see Jeong Yim as the founder of FUt San Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut. Something not taught in Chan Heung's branch. so with the roots being with chan Heung's gung fu there is no way for you to expel him and not say he isn't CLF.

Jeong Yim's name and CLF are synonymous.

You ask me about what Lee Yau San passed down to Jeong Yim, but then again you have not seen in the whole of your 50 years in CLF "NO" wriitings from Chan Heung, so how do you know what Lee Yau San passed down to Chan Heung

How will we know without the actual writings of CHan Heung what was passed on from choy fook, Lee Yau San, and Chan Yuen Wu. even within your own branch its not known whether Chan Yuen Wu taught Shaolin, Hung Ga or Fut Ga. I've seen everyone of those stating that Chan Yuen Wu was a master of those ones i just mentioned.

Hi Frank,

This is where you have to learn a little bit about the Chinese culture.

To the Chinese, especially the older generations, knowledge is power, literally.

So the founder of a system, no matter who or what, will always keep something for his bloodline, it is a proven strategy for survival in Chinese history.

He will always make sure he has someone in the family to continue his art and then pass the remaining secrets to them, then he makes sure there is an inner circle of disciples who will protect his bloodline and his art....

From this, we can see where Jeong Yim stands.

Go and read more books on Chinese history and philosophy and you will know what I am talking about.

EJ

[VStanmore]

A link where you can see supposedly a dvd about Frank's "um ying kuen".

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...v=glance&n=130

[hskwarrior]

i know what you are talking about. i've been raised around chinese all my life.

i just don't try and live like a chinese.

and i think bloodline and secrets go for more than just chinese. I would do the same for my sons or daughters as well.

So, now, I hope you can see why there is a stand off.

Chan Heung first created his CLF and passed it down through his bloodline.

Jeong Yim wasn't his bloodline. So regardless, he would never have gotten CHan Heung's most intimate CLF. that was meant for his bloodline.

However, Jeong Yim with all the gung fu he had in his background started his own lineage and we all see him as you see Chan Heung.

According to the FUt San HSK, not me, Jeong Yim had more than just Chan Heung as his teacher. It's always been said that before CHan Heung Jeong Yim already had some gung fu. then He learned longer with Ching Cho than he did with Chan heung.

Joseph, as long as the Chan Family has something to say about Jeong Yim' branch, this argument will never end. look at you and me, we go back now for a few years.

let us have our story, you have yours, tam sam has his and we are all one big happy CLF family.

[hskwarrior]

so joseph,

when you act like you have to knowledge, does that mean you have to act like you have all the power?

Just because Chan Yiu Chi happened to write down the history of his grandfather and of the style his grandfather created, that doesn't mean that the Fut San HSK doesn't have a worthy story to be told.

[extrajoseph]

Frank,

By my long absence from this forum you know I don't come here often until someone tells me that you are bad mouthing Chan Heung again.

My old man had a long association with the Chan Family so I have a duty to present their side of the story, even when I know Chen Yong Fa gave instruction to his students not to say anything in this forum.

You can glorify and tell stories about Jeong Yim and Futsan Hung Sing as much as you like, but not at the expense of Chen Heung and his descendants through your ignorance.

I have nothing to say about Jeong Yim except he is not and could not be the founder of CLF, which I have been doing all my life.

If you can understand this, then you will not hear from me at all. Otherwise I'll pop up everytime you push my button.

Until then...

EJ

[hskwarrior]

you want to exchange numbers, i'll call you to ***** and complain about your Chan Family CLF to your personally?

Now, I will never try and down play Chan Heung. He is one of Jeong Yim's sifu's.
However, our lineage differs than yours, and all we want is to tell our history.

If our history conflicts with yours, then we should have a conference again and this time iron out only the discrepancies. on both ends.

because you and i both know there are major discrepancies on both ends.

as you have your duty, I have mine. If you can respect that, than i can respect your position. I don't want to argue over history. Once all the drama ceases, our problems will too. Then and only then can we become one great Family.

GET IT!!!!

[hskwarrior]

And oh.......

I never Said Jeong Yim was founder of CLF, just co-founder.

But for his own branch he is a founder.

There's no need to argue anymore. if we don't know then we don't know. we have ours you have yours and we can all live peacefully.

In the words of the immortal Rodney King.........

CHoy Lee Fut people.......Can we all just get along?????????

[VStanmore]

I took the following article from this link:http://www.clfsd.com/articles.html#system

THE SYSTEM OF CHOY LEE FUT TRANSLATED FROM NOTES
BY MASTER CHEN YONG FA
Author: Lane Louie
There are a total of 148 forms in the choy lee fut system. These are subdivided into 3 levels: primary, secondary and tertiary. Apart from the fist forms, there are also weapons as well as 18 different types of dummies, which are also divided into these 3 categories of primary, secondary and tertiary. Even lion dance routines are another category of the choy lee fut system.
Each category is further subdivided into "soft", "hard", external, internal, long, short, and medium ranges for the weapons categories.
In the primary level fist forms, there are 10 forms, these are:
1."ng lun ma" ( 5 wheel horse)
2."ng lun choy" ( 5 wheel fist)
3,"siu moi fa kuen" ( small pum blossum fist)
4."siu sup ji kuen" ( small cross form)
5."sup ji jit fu kuen' ( cross blocking tiger form)
6."peng kuen" (level fist form)
7."peng jang kuen' ( level elbow form)
8."tet ji cheung kuen" ( iron arrow long form)
9."kung jl fook fu kuen" ( subjuing the tiger form)
10."sup jl kou da kuen" ( cross pattern fighting form)
At the secondary level, there are a total of 13 fist forms. These are:
1."sze mourn kiu jo sarng ma ( 4 door bridging, running the live horse)
2."sup baat lohan kuen'( 18 lohan hands -internal clf form.
3."jor yol dan keuk kuen" ( left & right alternating Single leg form)
4."oi lem bic da soy sou ying yang kung"(External yin yang sticky exercise for close fighting and hand breaking)
5. "dai bagua kuen" ( large bagua fist form)
6. "siu bagua kuen' ( small bagua fist form)
7. "moi fa bagua kuen" ( plum blossum bagua fist form)
8. "dat ting bagua kuen"(Achieving Harmony Bagua fist form)
9. "yee jong bagua kuen"(Strong Righteousness Bagua fist form)
10."hun yun bagua kuen'(bear man bagua fist form)
11. "dou fu bagua kuen"(fighting tiger bagua fist form)
12."ng ying bagua kuen'(5 animals bagua fist form)
13."bagua sum"( the heart of bagua fist form)
?

For those interested, Chan Heung in his work "Choy Lee Fut pai lian kuen hung kung bei yil" or The secret essentials of training the style of Choy Lee Fut provides much knowledge and guidance for the training of the practitioner of CLF. l

Chan Heung broke down the training of his system into 2 main stages, each of which has 3 sub-stages....culminating in complete mastery of the systems foundation as well as nei jin or internal power, and the weapons and art of sand bag and jongs.
For lian kung, Chan Heung listed sup yil or 10 essentials of which number 7 and hei cheung and number 8 faht heung indicates the importance of breathing in the art of Choy Lee Fut.
Chan Heung says "Mei lian kuen sik ji chin, sihn jarp ma bo" and the kuet lian ho sao but yue lian ho jou indicate the importance of the footwork training in CLF. The system contains two types of stances, both koh jong and dai jong.

I think the koh jong is for application, but for initial training the dai jong is more beneficial.
As the founder has indicated, the system of CLF stresses great importance in stance and footwork training, and this is also reflected in that the first form one should learn is the ng lun ma or five wheel stance. Here you practice all the basic stances and footwork of the system.....and as early as possible the internal training is initiated through breath control to try and harness some of the power of the chi. Such that the exercise is not purely ngoi kung but also includes noi kung. Of course that is if you train the form correctly and with understanding.

But the footwork training does not stop there. You can see at the intermediate level there is the sei mun kil jow sarng ma form which should be, if I'm not mistaken, originally two separate forms. the sei mun kil contains good bridging techniques.
The jow sarng ma is for training the "running the live horse" footwork and stance transitions. It is important to develop balance in conjunction with explosive bil ma, and in application will allow you to explode and bridge the gap in distance quickly and suddenly.
Further footwork training includes the wooden stakes mui fah jong, and indeed the penetrating dragon dummy will put your stance body connection, and strength of footwork under pressure and challenge and train you to improve these.

In the ping kuen, you learn the sliding horse and the tun ma or swallowing horse and the tol ma or spitting horse.

Of course there is also the baat gwa training in the baat gwa forms.
If you are interested in fighting but don't want to learn many forms, there is the see lo sarn sau which is a series of extremely effective combinations of the baat gwa hands/fighting techniques. It is like a crash course in CLF fighting, and I think intensive drilling of them will quickly build your skill for fighting application.

Those who like a good balance of hands and foot training may like the jor yul darn geuk kuen which explores the harmonious interplay of hand and foot techniques.

[extrajoseph]

And oh.......

I never Said Jeong Yim was founder of CLF, just co-founder.

But for his own branch he is a founder.

There's no need to argue anymore. if we don't know then we don't know. we have ours you have yours and we can all live peacefully.

In the words of the immortal Rodney King.........

CHoy Lee Fut people.......Can we all just get along?????????

Hi Frank,

I am trying to stay away but you keep pulling me back with your thoughtless comments. One more try:

CLF is like a huge tree and having branches means there is a tunk and roots to keep the tree strong and upright.

The trunk is Chan Heung and the roots are Shaolin.

Don't try to turn the 3 branches into 3 trunks, that would make it odd tree and we will not survive.

Build more branches but keep the trunk and the roots healthy and we will survive, otherwise we die.

It is not only history we are talking about here, it is about the survival of a tradition, which is up to us.

CLF Yut Gar!

EJ

[hskwarrior]

just as long as Tam Sam and Jeong Yim are standing in the same founders box, then there will be no more problems brother joe.

i know you only say i'm thoughtless because of how i stand on my position.

but i got love for ya anyway dude.

[extrajoseph]

Hi Frank,

Take a look at a healthy tree sometime, it has many branches and one thick trunk! Tam Sam, Jeong Yim and Loong Chi-Choy are the founders of a branch but Chan Heung is the trunk and our roots are in Shaolin.

So here is a picture of a healthy CLF "tree" :

Our roots are in Shaolin,
Chan Heung is the trunk, the founder of CLF,
Tam Sam is the founder of the Bak Sing branch of CLF (youngest),
Jeong Yim is the founder of Great Victory Hung Sing branch of CLF (in the middle),
Loong Chi Choy is the founder of Heroic Hung Sing branch of CLF (oldest), and
Chan Heung's descendants belong to the Great Sage Hung Sing branch of CLF, also an extension of the trunk.

Like a tree, there are many parts where two or three branches are mixed and also mixed with the trunk. By studying with Dino and then with Futsan you are mixing the branches but you are still part of the same tree.

But trying to cut off the Jeong Yim branch and forcefuly graft it onto the main trunk (insisting on Jeong Yim being the co-founder of CLF), you will either be rejected and fall off or kill the tree eventually. Do you really want this?

If you want to be a Futsan Hung Sing hero, then don't try to cut it off from the rest of the tree, make it a healthy and strong branch instead, then everyone in CLF will benefit from your action and you can stand tall and proud.

Divide and we shall fall, work together and we will be healthy and strong and above all, we will endure. What do you say?

CLF Yut Gar!

[CLFNole]

XJ:

Who were some of the more well known sifus from the Loong Chi Choy - Heroic Victory Hung Sing branch?

Just curious becuase you never here much about it.

Thanks.

[hskwarrior]

CLFNOLE,

I know others will bring up......"it was common to cross train and switch from sifu to sifu" because they were CLF.

But, according to the Li Iu Ling website, Lee Yan, Yuen Hai, and a few others who are well known disciples of Jeong Yim were labelled as Loong Gee Choy's students.

But, nowhere in any of these existing branches claim Loong Gee Choy.

This is one of the reasons I think Loong Gee Choy and Jeong Yim could possibly be the same person.

Not much is known about loong gee choy unless the chan family just never released anything. but if there was mor on him, then i think would have found it, heard about it or read it. But, the only branch that speaks about Loong Gee Choy is the Chan Family.

Now, Joseph, if you jump in on this, let's not get this out of hand. It is just a theory I have.

[hskwarrior]

http://www.liiuling.net.au/pdf/CLFlineages.pdf

the link above says that Loong Gee Choy's students were:

Chung Yeung, Cheung Hing, Yuen Hai (lau buns sifu) , Li Yan (singapore hsk line) and Lui Chun,(Tam Sam's sifu).

However, if this were true, why don't any of these currently existing schools have Loong Gee Choy in their lineage, but "ALL" are well known disciples of Jeong Hung Sing.

also, Joseph, i think you are wrong about On Pak dying young. According to the Li Iu Ling site On Pak died in his early 30's in 1873. Dying in your 30's was and still is considered young, especially when back then people were living over 100 years.

[hskwarrior]

Who actually started the Heroic Hung Sing?

From what i read, some say it was Chan Yiu Chi, some say Chan Koon Pak, and now maybe Loong Gee Choy????

If it was Loong Gee Choy, then why was his Hung SIng different to that of Chan Family, he was such a trusted disciple Chan Heung left him to take care of him?