what is your view on Chen style TaiChi ?

[yangyang]

If I'm not mistaken, they openly train boxing and san shou to go with their taiji. If you look at the CMC form the punching and kicking seems pretty limited. Tiffany Chen is one of the few people I've actually seen knock people around in pushands though without resorting to wrestling or brute strength.

If you practice traditional TCC as a martial art, there should be no need to supplement it with kickboxing and such. My comments are just general observations and not a criticisism towards the people you mention.

Generally, when people do this it is because something is lacking in their current training. TCC has kicks, punches, throws, fast sets, San Shou, and power development, but it's up to the individual practitioner to train it properly.

[SPJ]

There are also sub styles within Chen Tai Ji.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

As far as the Tiffany/Max/William Chen Yang style people go, they train with boxing gloves and to me that is another non-tai chi type activity to train. I am not criticising their skillz but training methods that involve boxing gloves seems like Boxing, not TCC. I never heard of Yang Cheng Fu or CMC using boxing gloves.

If I'm not mistaken, they openly train boxing and san shou to go with their taiji. If you look at the CMC form the punching and kicking seems pretty limited.

Yes, they use boxing gloves, MMA gloves, bare hands, etc... they train in the safest yet closely realistic conditions .. it is better to train a Taiji fajing expression with some concern for the safety of the partner, otherwise we either injure the partner or do "air drills"..

CMC is only one perception of Taiji. WCC Chen has demonstrated to me, personally, the power he can generate from the "1 inch punch", i was darn happy he was wearing MMA-type gloves.. If you look at many perceptions (styles) of Taiji you will see all the applications necessary for self-defense.. The Chens' train in approximately realistic conditions using Taiji principles from many styles.. i can't seem to find fault with this approach.. If someone uses boxing gloves to mitigate potentially dangerous techniques in the training environment, what's the issue?

I wonder if the use of "boxing gloves" somehow changes the dynamics of training? It seems like it would empower someone to use more aggressive Taiji techniques while protecting the training partner.. acquiring a more practical knowledge of the technique.. If i decide to train with a willing partner in the use of FaJing force, i would anticipate a slow progression into 75-90% of combat speed.. at that speed protection is essential.. we will train the technique and the defense(s) to the point that it "makes sense"...

It doesn't seem proper to complain of non-realistic training on one hand and then lament the use of protective gear that enhances that training on the other hand..

Although i don't favor the CMC forms, i can't argue the capabilities of CMC or his students.. there must be something to it..

Be well...

[B-Rad]

If you practice traditional TCC as a martial art, there should be no need to supplement it with kickboxing and such. My comments are just general observations and not a criticisism towards the people you mention.

Depends on what branch of taiji you're learning. Besides, what's wrong with learning new techniques? If people only stuck with faithfully imitating the techniques passed down to them without adding and subtracting then there wouldn't be so many branches of taiji quan.

If you compete in something like San Shou you're going to need boxing techniques (or something similiar). Most Yang taiji people, while they may have good self defence skills, just don't have the punching or kicking techniques needed for competitive fighting contained in the form. Yang taiji has what... just a front heel kick? 2 punches? The traditional Yang style form and its derivitives have a lot of great fighting techniques, but is defenitely lacking when it comes to punching and kicking compared to the average san shou fighter. Knowing taiji quan isn't going to magically give you an awesome side kick (unless it's a traditional part of the training... like in Chen style for example).

[B-Rad]

If you're an expert in taiji quan learning new technique from an outside source isn't suddenly going to negate your taiji experience.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

If you're an expert in taiji quan learning new technique from an outside source isn't suddenly going to negate your taiji experience.

Agreed, and didn't imply that it would..

Yang taiji has what... just a front heel kick? 2 punches?

Sweeping Lotus Kick (Cut Eyebrow Kick/inside crescent) Punches? if all you can discern is 2 punches, look again..

Yang style form and its derivitives have a lot of great fighting techniques, but is defenitely lacking when it comes to punching and kicking compared to the average san shou fighter. Knowing taiji quan isn't going to magically give you an awesome side kick (unless it's a traditional part of the training... like in Chen style for example).

There's nothing magical about it, if someone trains diligently, follows up with the associated QiGongs, meditations, drills, and fight-training.. all the tools you "need" are available for SanShou, or any other purpose.. Remember, there are people out there that have retained "original Yang", spirals, FaJing, conditioning, speed, etc....

From my experience(s), Taiji is more than the forms.. it is a set of principles that can be applied to external as well as internal situations.. the principles are universal, from combat to making love.. It is the narrowly focused or those with limited vision that seek to confine Taiji to some rigid traditional set of movements.. Taiji is living dynamic Art, it evolves in the same manner it was created.. through the insights and diligence of dedicated people..

Be well...

[B-Rad]

From my experience(s), Taiji is more than the forms.. it is a set of principles that can be applied to external as well as internal situations..

True, but you're not going to learn how to do a good side thrust kick without learning it from somewhere. And it's better to learn it from someone who's really good at it, and has used it extensively rather than try and reinvent the wheel.

Sweeping Lotus Kick (Cut Eyebrow Kick/inside crescent) Punches? if all you can discern is 2 punches, look again..

Sorry, I forgot about the lotus kick. I should've rememberd that, I've done a Yang taiji form before though it's been a long time since I've practiced it As for the punches... I still really don't see much variety, at least without modification. At least nothing that would stand up to someone who had good western boxing skills. I'll try to look again though, as I said it's been awhile since I've practiced or looked closely at Yang Cheng Fu's taiji. My judgement could be clouded by the fact that I learned boxing techniques and other martial arts before I'd been exposed to taiji quan, so I never needed to look for it in my taiji form. Never NEEDED to practice it as a complete martial art, since I could defend myself fine before.

[B-Rad]

Quote:
If you're an expert in taiji quan learning new technique from an outside source isn't suddenly going to negate your taiji experience.

Agreed, and didn't imply that it would..

I was responding to Yang Yang on that one. I felt he was implying that learning new stuff from a san shou fighter or boxer meant you couldn't be considered a real taiji person. Like you said, "Taiji is more than the forms.. it is a set of principles that can be applied to external as well as internal situations.. "

If you find a technique(s) that isn't in your form work that you like, there's no reason you shouldn't be able to absorb it into your taiji quan. I mostly practice Sun style now, and it's a good example of this. Incorperating material from outside sources into taiji quan.

[yangyang]

In the Yang long form that I practice there is two side kicks, lotus kick, and about 4 front heel kicks, and there is about five different punches in the form. I don't know what you guys are talking about, but everything you need is in the tai chi forms. What? You can't isolate the kicks and punches from the form and train them independently??? I do. Using other arts principles are not the same as TCC principles, if you do that you are only taking yourself away from TCC. That's my opinion and many others as well. Do what you want, but it takes so long as it is to get the correct body method in TCC, why would you want to go and screw that up by learning how a boxer punches or a kickboxer kicks?? Makes no sense at all to me.

[Water Dragon]

If I'm not mistaken, they openly train boxing and san shou to go with their taiji. If you look at the CMC form the punching and kicking seems pretty limited. Tiffany Chen is one of the few people I've actually seen knock people around in pushands though without resorting to wrestling or brute strength.

If you pay close attention to the CC Chen guys, you'll see that the punching is actually pretty different than boxing. You don't have the jab, cross, hook, uppercut type combos. Instead you have your 'punch' which comes from a wide variety of angles (inside of a circle). For the most part, the fist and arm position doesn't change. The body changes more in relation to the opponent (this comes from Tui Shou) The mecahnics are trained pretty differently too although you end up with something similar (not exactly the same, similar)

As far as Chen Taiji, I'd say study the silk reeling and push hands, and find a good Judo club. Don't worry about the form or applications.

[tjqg]

The difference between Chen and Yang style is not on fighting.
Both Chen Fake and Yang luchan were great fighters, and none of any style Tai Chi masters are good fighter today, except their opponent are their students, though.

[greendragon]

Thanks for the good discussion, glad I came back as it took a while to get some response. To further clarify... I have a good background with hsing-i, pa-kua, aikido and some other stuff. I have been doing the combined 24 movement form taught by the chinese government for years, it is supposed to be mostly yang but mixed with other styles.
Now I see a chance to learn from an officially sanctioned Chen teacher. I see little skill in this individual from watching him fight in tournaments. However I am thinking of joining to learn the teachings of Chen and learn from the forms what I can. I like to keep adding to my fighting skills, even though I don't think I will ever need to harm anyone, fighting builds a strong spirit !

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Both Chen Fake and Yang luchan were great fighters, and none of any style Tai Chi masters are good fighter today, except their opponent are their students, though.

How does someone make such an uninformed statement? I can inroduce you to numerous Taiji "fighters" that can hold their own in any venue..

Supposing that a person trains for 20 years in "external" arts then trains for another 15 years focusing on "internal" systems.. then, they insightfully apply the internal principles to all their techniques.. I suggest that they have evolved their fighting skills to be "internal".. Taiji is just a word, its principles are universal, and we sometimes come off as elitist when we battle of definitions..

There are too many people assuming that the only evidence of a "fighter" is found in sanctioned ring-style matches.. the evidence, by my standards, is observable when the MAist has to use it for real.. it's a different dynamic on the street, i've seen too many "good ring-fighters' get trashed in the streets.. Most people train for self-defense, not to be the next UFC champion.. It's almost comical how many students choose their art based on the current dominating style or fighter in sanctioned matches... The single most important quality is the student's dedication, almost any Martial Art will serve the dedicated student well...

Be well..

[qiphlow]

[QUOTE=TaiChiBob]
There are too many people assuming that the only evidence of a "fighter" is found in sanctioned ring-style matches.. the evidence, by my standards, is observable when the MAist has to use it for real.. it's a different dynamic on the street, i've seen too many "good ring-fighters' get trashed in the streets.. Most people train for self-defense, not to be the next UFC champion.. It's almost comical how many students choose their art based on the current dominating style or fighter in sanctioned matches... The single most important quality is the student's dedication, almost any Martial Art will serve the dedicated student well...
QUOTE]


i agree one thousand percent!!!!!!!

[pudaoking]

quote:
waterdragon said: "As far as Chen Taiji, I'd say study the silk reeling and push hands, and find a good Judo club. Don't worry about the form or applications."

Huh??????? I understand studying the silk reeling and push hands part, but find a judo club. Are you insane? Why would somebody studing Taijiquan, Chen or otherwise waste time learning Judo which is not even a martial art but was created only as a sport? That would be like a gourmet chef who studies his craft in france with top chefs to add to his cooking skills the art of how to make a burger king whopper. That would only waste time and be detrimental to his advanced training. And don't worry about the form or applications? Apparently you don't study any form of chinese martial arts, but in arts like Tajiquan the most important aspect, especially for the beginer, is in training form by training in the form. Without proper form study you have nothing. Don't even bother studying chinese martial arts because you will never get anywhere. The forms are an essential and indespensible learning tool in your lifelong journey of learning and practicing Tajiquan. Learning applications after you have completely learned and practiced the form for at least a year or two, is also very important, otherwise how else would you know how to use your techniques properly in combat. It usually is a wise idea to know what it is you are practicing or doing .