No Sex

[neilhytholt]

Me thinks you have a bone to pick.

Perhaps you are another person we already know venting under another psuedonym???

'Tis not me.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hui-Neng's story can be thought of like this:

the Diamond Sutra spoken was like a bell within Hui-Neng being struck and began to resonate at a frequency. He was then given the tool to strike the bell with and kept it at the same frequency all his life. The Diamond Sutra was the "tool" and it worked for him. I'll bet you many times he repeated this sutra to himself, even after his awakening.

Or perhaps it was a knock at the door of his mind reminding him of what he already knew in the first place.

[Scott R. Brown]

'Tis not me.

Hi neil,

I was wondering if nairb was just neil spelled backwards, lol!!

His style and yours appear somewhat similar. But upon relflection it does seem that brian's, I mean nairb's, form of ridiclue reflects a more passive/aggressive tendency while your style seems to be more direct!

I prefer direct!

[Nexus]

Or perhaps it was a knock at the door of his mind reminding him of what he already knew in the first place.

We can also presume that his mind was in a state able to perceive the Truth therein the Diamond Sutra. And as the Buddha might have said, it is such that there is no Truth, that we may therefor call it the Truth.

[neilhytholt]

Hi neil,

I was wondering if nairb was just neil spelled backwards, lol!!

His style and yours appear somewhat similar. But upon relflection it does seem that brian's, I mean nairb's, form of ridiclue reflects a more passive/aggressive tendency while your style seems to be more direct!

I prefer direct!

No, I'm not getting involved in written jousting anymore. After the whole threads on sifu vs. sifu, fighting vs. culture, etc., it just goes nowhere.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

"We are traveling to where we have always been, from ignorance to enlightenment.. the vehicle is awareness"..

nairb: While fixated on the notion that we "already have it", you overlook the cultivation of awareness.. there is a subtle but profound difference between existing in an "enlightened state", and being aware that you exist in that state.. For example: i was about to pay large $ for adding a CD changer to my new (1999, new to me ) ML320.. but, on a recent trip i had a flat tire and while getting the jack out of the nifty compartment in the back i had to negotiate past some strange contraption.. OMG!! it was a 6 CD changer.. i rejoiced on the side of I-95 at my new-found "enlightenment".. I already had it! but, lacked the awareness..

The lack of discpline some seem to lament is a misplaced lament.. the discipline is usually, not always, necessary to cultivate the "awareness".. From my perspective/experience the cultivation of awareness is less ritualistic and more beneficial than trying to recreate something you already have.. if, from my previous example, if i had tried to install a new CD player there would have been conflicts in wiring and signals.. not unlike trying to recreate a state of "enlightenment".. or, as Scott so nicely chose, a state of "realization", as in realizing we already "have it"..

"Do not walk in the footsteps of others, seek what they sought on your own path.." The great ones forged their own way, the lesser inclined, too lazy to have their own experiences, remain content to duplicate.. Most people are either unaware of their full potential or reject it out of convenience.. It is easy to accept a doctrine or discipline in a prescribed format, it takes away the personal responsibility for one's own existence and assigns it to some contrived standard.. It is somewhat more difficult to forge your own way while others chide you on your deviation from "their" perspective of the correct way..

I'm still not clear how one can say they are realized or enlightened without going thru some of the processes indicated by enlightened individuals. I guess that's why the Zen school have things like the robe and bowl to indicate transfer of the Dharma.

A great first step.. realizing that you are not clear.. if someone tells me they are "enlightened" as if it were some achievement or as if they are deserving of some sort of respect, i am cautious of their intentions and their claims.. Enlightenment or "realization" should be evident without proclamation.. it is evident in the person's living.. Now, again, i ask how is it that we accept the notion that there is a valid "processes indicated by enlightened individuals."..what evidence do we have that these people were/are "enlightened.. words, stories, etc... but, we have not even set a standard for determining what constitutes enlightenment.. we chase a goal that has no definition.. a misty magical concept romanticised by stories and beliefs.. so, by extrapolation, if we can't define "enlightenment", how can we stipulate a "correct path"?

We stumble greatly over differing perceptions.. "animal sex" to one person is a deep and sensual Tantric meditation to another.. The Taoist Tantric tradition has long been recognized as a valid means of "realization" through natural discipline.. What we bring to the table is a lot of baggage that we hold dear due to its familiarity, its comfort level.. much of our baggage (prejudice) is so dear to us because we define ourselves with it.. if someone's experiences have led them to the perspective that sex is somehow impure or beneath their level of refinement or detrimental, that is "their" perspective, not necessarily valid for others.. We create ourselves, or we let others do it for us.. Blind adherence to doctrine, dogma and discipline is the enemy of evolution and realization.. follow the well-traveled path and you arrive at the same stagnant over-crowded place.. comfortable, lots of fellowship and well-intended people.. but devoid of "creativity".. creativity, the key to the kingdom..

Disciplines, dogmas, rituals, etc.. are great experiences to help you navigate "your" own way to "realization", but.. they are not "your" realization, they are someone else's.. disciplines set up parameters, not fences.. they warn us that deviation has risk, not inevitable destruction.. The human experience would suffer from fatal entropy if there were not those that deviated from the road well-traveled.. So, have the full-range of human experience.. it is lovingly offered by the Tao.. temper it with reasoned evaluation as to its benefit in your aspirations.. and adjust "your" experiences accordingly.. or, if your nature compells you, get in line and trod along with so many other followers.. but remember, "if you're not in front, the view is the same.. the backside of the person in front of you".. Disciplines are "fingers pointing at the moon", use the pointer to "realize" the moon..

Be well...

[Crushing Fist]

I would say


a proclamation of enlightenment is evidence against such.





as far as cultivating what one already has goes


I see it somewhat differently


instead of cultivation in this regard


I would call it a "stripping away" of what we have "gained" to return to a previous state.

I imagine water washing away the dirt from a gemstone. is this a cultivation?



sitting forgetting...

each day more is forgotten...

until one forgets oneself.

[DarinHamel]

Hi Darin,

If mind exists, then mind is of Tao because nothing can exist separate from Tao. Since mind perceives and mind is a manifestation of Tao, Tao perceives. We are nothing more than Tao perceiving itself!

Time is nothing but an arbitrary measure of change. For time to exist there must be something to perceive it! If there is nothing to perceive phenomena how can anything be demonstrated to exist. What would do the measuring? Nothing would be observing nothing be nothing, therefore nothing could occur or exists! If there is no mind, there is nothing!

Consider a movie on film. The entire performance is contained on the reel. Each moment in time is contained on each frame. Each moment exists at once, in the same instant, when the reel is held in the hand, but each moment must be experienced one after the other when viewed. This is because that is how the mind perceives within our world system. When the film is displayed upon the screen it is projected upon a two dimensional media, but “appears” to be three dimensional. Action and events “appear” to occur, but they are not really occurring. They also appear to occur in a linear fashion, but they are in fact all occurring at once it is just that they are displayed one after another and that gives the illusion of time. The perspective projected upon the two dimensional screen provides the illusion of space.

When a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it, it DOES NOT make a sound. Sound is a function of waves impinging on a receiving apparatus and then interpreted by a mind. Without the falling tree (the cause of the waves) the receptive instrument (the listening apparatus) and the interpretive system, (the mind) there is no sound! A falling tree makes waves through the air, but those waves are only sound when they are received and interpreted as sound by a mind.

Without mind to measure there is nothing to measure. Without mind to perceive nothing occurs.

MIND is only the Tao perceiving itself? I agree in principle that Tao (God) is at the center of our being, but we are not at the center of Tao (Gods being). It is a self delusion in my opinion to put MIND at the center of the universe. Tao is at the center of the universe and therefore it is at the center of us. But we are not at the center of Tao.


Sound waves ARE vibrations that vibrate regardless if there is someone there or not. To deny that is to deny a fundamental fact of the universe. Kinda like the Fundies who say that the devil put the dinosaur bones in the earth to fool scientists about the earths age so as to destroy the Christian faith. Thats really odd Scott. The laws of physics regarding sound cease when we are not listening? Do the laws of nuclear fusion cease when we don't see the sun or stars?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

DarinHamel: "Sound" is a "word" humans (english speaking) use to describe a condition.. it is a convenience of communication.. not a law of physics.. sound is a naturally occurring condition that only becomes "sound" when described by humans.. we hear things, animals hear things, it is likely that plants hear things.. humans call the stimulus of the physics of hearing "sound".. if there's no human to hear the "sound", there is no "sound".. no mind to form the words to say the "word" sound.. yes, an event occurred, but without a human observer to categorize it into the language of communication.. it is a subtle but important distinction.. it is the difference between the finger and the moon..

Be well...

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

MIND is only the Tao perceiving itself? I agree in principle that Tao (God) is at the center of our being, but we are not at the center of Tao (Gods being). It is a self delusion in my opinion to put MIND at the center of the universe. Tao is at the center of the universe and therefore it is at the center of us. But we are not at the center of Tao.

Given that the universe is infinite and eternal, the center is everywhere.. we are not separate from Tao it seems that you have a fragmented perspective of Tao.. without the lesson in semantics and logical reasoning, i assert that your arguement is self-defeating.. the "God", Tao, us configuration you describe returns to its own center.. as it should be..

Be well...

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Darin,

TaiChiBob is on a role so I will read and reflect rather than respond right now. (Hey! That's almost an entire sentence of R's )

[DarinHamel]

Greetings..

DarinHamel: "Sound" is a "word" humans (english speaking) use to describe a condition.. it is a convenience of communication.. not a law of physics.. sound is a naturally occurring condition that only becomes "sound" when described by humans.. we hear things, animals hear things, it is likely that plants hear things.. humans call the stimulus of the physics of hearing "sound".. if there's no human to hear the "sound", there is no "sound".. no mind to form the words to say the "word" sound.. yes, an event occurred, but without a human observer to categorize it into the language of communication.. it is a subtle but important distinction.. it is the difference between the finger and the moon..

Be well...

Semantics aside sound happens. For a billion years life has slimed around this planet and "sound" didn't arise only when humans could describe it in philosophical terms. Sound=noise=crashing trees as a brontosaurus scratches his back on one and it falls over making a boom sound which is not a convenience of communication but the result of an event and a law of physics.

Finger and the moon? A human need not categorize anything for a "sound" to make a "noise". Your living in a dream world Neo!

[DarinHamel]

Greetings..

Given that the universe is infinite and eternal, the center is everywhere.. we are not separate from Tao it seems that you have a fragmented perspective of Tao.. without the lesson in semantics and logical reasoning, i assert that your arguement is self-defeating.. the "God", Tao, us configuration you describe returns to its own center.. as it should be..

Be well...

The center is everywhere only in a universe that is infinite, in that you are correct. But our universe is not infinite. Our universe had a beginning and it will have an end. It has mass, shape, size and it is expanding.

You semantics and logical reasoning are not beyond me, don't worry.

I am an absolutist. I am guessing you and Scott are realitivistics? Where did you get your training in semantics and logic?

[Nexus]

Semantics aside sound happens. For a billion years life has slimed around this planet and "sound" didn't arise only when humans could describe it in philosophical terms. Sound=noise=crashing trees as a brontosaurus scratches his back on one and it falls over making a boom sound which is not a convenience of communication but the result of an event and a law of physics.

Finger and the moon? A human need not categorize anything for a "sound" to make a "noise". Your living in a dream world Neo!

Semantics included, sound doesn't happen. The perception of sound happening is a notion, and notions whether they are real or unreal are not actually occuring, they are merely perceived to be occuring due to perception of dualistic reality. Since you have become well versed in ancient taoist text, you will recognize that the perception of duality is not a peerless perfect enlightenment, since there is only one.

Darin, here is what it is important that you take from this: It is because sound does not actually occur that we may indeed say, sound is occuring and that we indeed hear that sound.

When we breathe out air, we say, that person has breathed. Does the breath actually exist, or is it merely the perception of what we have learnt a breath to be that we bear witness to the occurence of. We may say, I see you breathing, when we see a steam come from a persons warm breath on a cold day. Are we actually seeing a "breath" or are we seeing "steam" or is it really none of those things? It is because the notion of those things is merely a perception that we may say, I see these things occuring.

[DarinHamel]

Perhaps I am just too literal minded for all you guys and your high-minded concepts. To be honest, I dont understand what your trying to convey. To me a sound is a sound is a sound. Its noise that is there whether or not I am.

Its like the no sex thing. I looked throughout the worlds mystical paths and found all the common denominators of the mystics I wanted to be like and I have adopted their practices. I believe that anything anybody else has done I can do if I just do what they did to get it. These are just five of them. I probably have others but I cant remember them off the top of my head.

1-Non-attachment to material goods (poverty)
2-No Sex (chastity)
3-Service to humanity (obedience)
4-Meditation (prayer)

I also think these must be seriously committed to also. Meditation for two or more hours a day for example. Not 20 minutes on occasion or listening to music and calling that meditation. Not reading about meditation or talking about but actually sitting in silence and doing it for several hours a day.

Perhaps I am a Taoist fundamentalist and you guys are Taoist liberals?