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Thread: Songshan Shaolin Lyrics: Xiaohongquan

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeneChing
    The shortened form cuts the form in half. It's used to teach students that only have a few lesson sessions or are very low level in skill. I've seen it taught to many tourists at Shaolin and heard of it being taught in short seminars.

    The form above is the standard form. It's execution is pretty standard too. I agree with Sal that this rendition is still fairly external, although the play rate at youtube tends to blur the expression of fajing. You do see more internal versions at Shaolin, mostly from the internal temple monks or the older masters.
    Yep, the internal version is nice thing to see.

    When you see internal version of such Shaolin forms, you can see how Chen tai ji developed out of Shaolin's Tai Tzu, Hong Quan, Pao Chuoi, and other forms.

    By the way, I've been making a chart that shows the one to one correspondance between the Chen Lao Jiao form and the equivalent moves in Shaolin Tai Tzi Long Fist forms.

    The Lao Jia is supposed to be a few forms merged into one Chen tia ji form,
    and you can follow where you are in the Tai tzi form along side the Chen TJ form pretty well.

    What I'd like to do is get an expert Chen person to do the form next to someone doing the Shaolin Tai Tzu form and photograph the moves to show how Chen is derived from the Shaolin TZ long fist form.

    Maybe publish it in your mag, Gene?

  2. #47

    Chen Tai Ji and Tai Zu Quan

    Originally posted by Sal Canzonieri
    What I'd like to do is get an expert Chen person to do the form next to someone doing the Shaolin Tai Tzu form and photograph the moves to show how Chen is derived from the Shaolin TZ long fist form.
    It has already been done. Definitely talk to Jarek Szymanski. He is an extensive researcher on internal fighting systems and has lived in China for well over 10 years now (http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/aboutme.html).

    Not only has he already published a large amount of materials on the connections between Chen Jia Tai Ji and Shaolin Tai Zu Quan, but also holds in his collection extensive primary and secondary research on the topic and more http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/ta...ngmanuals.html.

    You should definitely talk to him as a key source. He is very friendly and a strong beleiver in the open exchange of information. His homepage is here http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/index.html.


    BBK

  3. #48
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    Bah. I emailed him many times and he doesn't discuss.

    I know how to do both the Shaolin Tai Tzu and the Chen Lao Jia
    and what I am attempting is a table that shows move by move what is the Shaolin equivalent root move and form for each move in the Chen Loa Jia form and eventually to do the same thing for the Chen 108 Move Long Fist form.

    Knowing how to do the forms makes a big difference.

  4. #49
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    he makes this comment onn his site.

    After examining the Chen clan writings and comparing them with "Qi Jiguang's Boxing Canon" and "Taizu Xia Nan Tang", Tang Hao found out that twenty nine postures of "Long-range Boxing" can be found in "Qi Jiguang's Boxing Canon" and eleven in "Taizu Xia Nan Tang"; for "Cannon Boxing" and five sets of "Thirteen Postures", twenty can be found in "Qi Jiguang's Boxing Canon" and nine in "Taizu Xia Nan Tang". Hence Tang Hao suspected that "Taizu Xia Nan Tang" was, together with "Qi Jiguang's Boxing Canon", the basis for Chen clan empty hand martial art. In Tang's opinion all other techniques were created by Chen Wangting, excluding spear and staff (which, according to "Wenxiu Version", were not original Chen techniques).
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sal Canzonieri
    This isn't Shaolin Xiao Hung Quan, it is taiwanese Tai Tzu Quan from the Mai Hua Long Fist system.

    What you are correctly observing is that both forms come from the same roots, Tai Tzu Long Fist.
    Cool! I'm impressed you all can recognize it. Since most of my Shifu's Longfist comes from either Han Qingtang or Wang Songting and their students, and since they both came from Shandong, I'd guess it would be fair to say this is Shandong Longfist (they call it Jiaomen Longfist cuz it was often practiced by Moslems).

    My shifu has several forms called "Taizu" Longfist, but he doesn't lump his Xiao Hong-quan in with that category (though all LF come from Taizu originally). I think it is just because it was a popular form and therefore included a lot of variation. If it really was the invention of Shaolin, then by the time it got to Shandong and spent a couple hundred years there it is not surprising it is very different (or perhaps they're totally unrelated and just share a name?).
    What senses do we lack that we cannot see or hear another world all around us?

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  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by onyomi
    Cool! I'm impressed you all can recognize it. Since most of my Shifu's Longfist comes from either Han Qingtang or Wang Songting and their students, and since they both came from Shandong, I'd guess it would be fair to say this is Shandong Longfist (they call it Jiaomen Longfist cuz it was often practiced by Moslems).

    My shifu has several forms called "Taizu" Longfist, but he doesn't lump his Xiao Hong-quan in with that category (though all LF come from Taizu originally). I think it is just because it was a popular form and therefore included a lot of variation. If it really was the invention of Shaolin, then by the time it got to Shandong and spent a couple hundred years there it is not surprising it is very different (or perhaps they're totally unrelated and just share a name?).
    Well, the trouble is that ther are a lot of Xiao Hong Quan and Da Hong Quan forms all over China, they are all different.

    Some are based on tai tzi and some are based on Moslem martial arts.

    Tai tzi Quan long fist is composed of Shaolin Lohan and Moslem Hong Quan, with internal aspects from unverifiable sources (Hua Mt. internal martial arts).
    Shaolin adopted 3 of these Tai Tzu Long Fist forms some time after the Emperor visted Shaolin.

    Abbott Fu Yu (or Fu Ju) combined Tai Tzu and Lohan forms with those of other styles during the Sung Dynasty and created the Shaolin Jing Gang Style. Also, the Kan Jia forms were developed around that time as well.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson
    he makes this comment onn his site.

    Yeah, but all these "scholars" are not doers, (even though they are agreeing with me) they don't know how to do the forms they write about, so they don't see what reality shows, that all the moves in Chen Lao Jia form are from Shaolin Tai Tzu Quan.

    Of course what Chen has added is more deeper internal ideas, such as silk reeling, etc. But even these things are already there, they just brought them out more and made them more prominant.

    There is also the 108 Move Long Fist form that ancient Chen style has.
    I find most of the moves in that form also in the Chang Family Nei Jia Quan style from the neighboring area adjacent to where Chen village is.

  8. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by GeneChing
    (there's a good complete version of Shi Deyang demonstrating in that part)...
    hey gene is deyang is doing xiao hong chuan or something else...?

  9. #54
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    smooth nice footwork, especially for a guy of his proportions & maybe older age. I am fairly positive he's older than me.
    Looks like he was rendering the form in an instructional way, putting the influence on displaying the moves rather than going full power with it. Good way to display precision while still maintaining a flowing pace. And cohesive & enjoyable to watch.
    Master...Teach me kung fu.

  10. #55
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    I'm tempted to say it's in the section that has traditional kung fu demonstration from the Academic Symposium in 2003, but I'm not sure (there's a good complete version of Shi Deyang demonstrating in that part).
    Shi Deyang is the Bomb. The way he demonstrates Da Tong Bei Quan in his video reminds me of this other man's style, sort of an expository, illustrative style.

    anyway when i watch someone like this i realize how much better my footwork could be. lol and yeah, my hands could improve too i suppose.
    thanks SPJ
    Master...Teach me kung fu.

  11. #56
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    Taizu Longfist is considered "the Mother of Northern Longfist," and since Longfist is considere the Mother of Northern martial arts, some people see it as the progenitor of most modern Northern CMA. The original set, however, was very simple and rarely practiced anymore. It's just like a set of postures with a number of move variations you can go to from those postures. There are Taizu Longfist forms as well, but they are newer, probably late Ming-early Qing at the earliest.

    Also, "first" doesn't necessarily mean "best." Is Beng-bu the "ultimate" Praying Mantis form just because it was the first? No. In fact, it's pretty darn simple and everything it does is done as well or better in other, newer Mantis forms. You can gain insight into the development of the primary elements of PM by practicing Beng-bu, just as you can gain some insight into the development of Northern CMA by practicing Taizu, but these are not "the ultimate" just because they're the oldest.
    What senses do we lack that we cannot see or hear another world all around us?

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  12. #57
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    can gain insight into the development of the primary elements of PM by practicing Beng-bu, just as you can gain some insight into the development of Northern CMA by practicing Taizu

    Reply]
    Actually, this is a very good point. This is one reson why I look towards the really old forms. It's sort of like starting with the foundations first.

    It is also good to look at forms that imediatley descended from Tai Tzu as well, especially if you are digging into the core esscence of an art.
    Last edited by Royal Dragon; 07-01-2006 at 09:33 AM.
    Those that are the most sucessful are also the biggest failures. The difference between them and the rest of the failures is they keep getting up over and over again, until they finally succeed.


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  13. #58
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    Do you have anything of intrest to offer?
    Those that are the most sucessful are also the biggest failures. The difference between them and the rest of the failures is they keep getting up over and over again, until they finally succeed.


    For the Women:

    + = & a

  14. #59

    Xiao Hong Quan

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ao1SpJVK_5g

    Can anybody tell me how old this form is ?


    Kind Regards,
    Xian

  15. #60
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    I can't watch YouTube as its blocked in China,

    But I am assuming it is Shaolin Xiao Hong Quan?

    There is some argument as to how old this form is;

    By the Oral Tradition here in Shaolin, masters say it was created 1000 years ago in the song dynasty, during a meeting of 18 great masters of 18 schools. But there are many versions of this story, and the style created varies between Taizu Quan, Pao Quan and Hong Quan, and maybe all of them. Some say even Xiao Hong Quan predates this time and it was one of the 18 styles used to refine the new forms.

    Certainly the name may be 1000 years old, but as to the exact form its anyones guess. There are some versions that split from shaolin 200 years ago, and the form remains unchanged so we can say at least that. My best guess is its remained the same from about the year 1600.....but thats conjecture, I don't think anyone is sure. I hope its 1000 years old, that would be cool.

    There is a written poem describing the names of the moves in this form, does anyone know how old the oldest written version of this is?

    Certainly its one of shaolins ultimate forms and generally considered the most important;
    Xiao Hong Quan, Xiao Tong Bei Quan, Xiao Pao Quan, Da hong Quan, Luohan Quan.
    Last edited by RenDaHai; 06-21-2010 at 02:55 AM.

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