Wushu-nization of traditional arts.

[Water Dragon]

I love Wushu! I wish I could move like that. People around here love to talk smack, but the fact is that true Wushu guys are athletes who could probably run circles around the people who nay say it.

Is it fighting? No, but that doesn't make it worthless.

[BigPandaBear]

Please explain how you can objectively say that modern wushu is a chance of evolution for TCMA. What kind of evolution? In techniques? For real combat situation? For performances?

Just asking......

Regards,


Luca

PS: in my personal opinion (and underline my personal opinion) wushu was, is and will be not a chance of evolution,...but just a step backward, to what the Chinese achieved in thousands of years of evolution.

TCMAs were structured for fighting, PERIOD. Certainly many arts added breathing techniques, spiritual development, etc., but all of those were a means to an end. That end of course was to make the most well-rounded fighter possible. Various schools competed with other to prove their superiority over many generations. There were even full contact bouts between schools.

However all of that has ceased. TCMAs now are pretty much locked in form training, very little of which has to do with actual fighting applications. Take for example a discussion I had with a gentleman who said he could stop a takedown by "rooting" himself. Nevermind the fact that no one has ever been able to do that, and if they have, they need to come out of hiding and train me so I can make millions of dollars on the NHB circuit.

And that above is exactly why TCMAs are dead arts. If I had asked someone who is an actual fighter, I'd get a more logical answer. An answer born from actual fighting experience, and not mystical heresay. Unfortunately many TCMA instructors don't want to adapt their art into something more effective. They want to keep it as "original" or as "authentic" as possible as if the old masters knew more about fighting than what we know today.

Let me tell you something; Your old master didn't fight like Jackie Chan in Drunken Master or like Jet Li in Fist of Legend. No, they more than likely fought like this;

http://mplay.donga.com/dkbnews/2004/0401_ohvsjin.wmv

Of course I know that TCMAs have been around for the thousands of years. But then again so have swords. There's a reason why soldiers nowadays carry guns into actual conflicts, and there's a reason why swordarts like fencing and Kendo are competitive sports.

Sound familiar? It should.

[Water Dragon]

Take for example a discussion I had with a gentleman who said he could stop a takedown by "rooting" himself. Nevermind the fact that no one has ever been able to do that, and if they have, they need to come out of hiding and train me so I can make millions of dollars on the NHB circuit.

And that above is exactly why TCMAs are dead arts. If I had asked someone who is an actual fighter, I'd get a more logical answer. An answer born from actual fighting experience, and not mystical heresay. Unfortunately many TCMA instructors don't want to adapt their art into something more effective. They want to keep it as "original" or as "authentic" as possible as if the old masters knew more about fighting than what we know today.

.

LOL. The funny thing is, I know exactly what that guy is talking about, and I use that technique all the time. It works about as often as a sprawl does. Thing is, it's more a function of timing than it is root. Time it right, and it's the other guy rooting you into the ground. Time it wrong, and you better have a decent guard game.

[Yum Cha]

Mufuhok,

Does Wushu-nization mean de-martialisation or does it mean popularisation?

Remember, as a lead up to the Bejing Olympics, the PRC started boosting Wu-shu in anticipation of having it in the Olympics, thus there has been a short term peak.

I believe it has now been dropped, but the momentum remains.

Also, while there may be an increase in the number of Wu Shu players, it does not necessarily mean there is a corresponding decrease in the number of Traditional Players.

Good TCMA has always been rare, and I suspect it will remain so, but that doesnt mean its dead, just not popularised.

[Mufahok]

Yum Cha,

Wushu-nization to the point of de-martialization.

Don’t think it’s a question of popularization.

With some arts, mainlanders have literally forgotten how it was done.

Imo, with the little that they still remember, they add what they do best – Wushu movements.

Question; have you seen DVDs from mainland featuring classical forms with all sort of flowery movements?

And to the statement made earlier; Wushu guys can run circles around TCMAs – got to say I agree partially.

They can sure run.

Thanks.

[Gru Bianca]

Thanks you for your detailed reply. I understand now better what you meant with your previous post.
I will not comment on how I think the fighting would go in the old times as I was not around and mine would only be a speculation. Obviously, just to explain things clearly, I do not think that in the old times they were fighting like in the Kungfu movies, if that is what you thought I'm thinking.
Oh,.. by the way,.. the video you posted,... yeah ... we all know it sucks,....and we definitely were not well represented in that event.

Any way,... as much as I can agree with many of the points you have explained, I still feel to disagree that Wushu would reppresent the feature or evolution, simply because even if you look at TCMA only from the performance point of view, I still believe Wushu has nothing of martial and much of athleticism which in itself it deserves a lot of respect as much as gymnastic does.

Regards,

Luca

[Gru Bianca]

Hi Mufahok,

If I understood well you are in Asia. May I ask in which Country are you located?

Regards,

Luca

[Mufahok]

Hi Luca,

Originally from Malaysia but travelling all over now.

Most part of the year in Singapore and due to business, you'll also find me in Thailand, Hong Kong and Taiwan.

Thanks.

[TenTigers]

I hate to repeat myself but,
"There are CMA schools that are hands on, stress conditioning,reaction drills, hard contact,ground fighting, and constant pressure testing, fighting with their Gung-Fu,with forms and demos taking less of a priority"
I realize that there are many "TCMA" schools that do not train this way, but there are more and more people coming up that are doing this. This does not mean that they are dropping their art, but are adding more training methods, developing attributes and training realistically. Are they the exception to the rule?
Probably. Is Kyokushin (one of) the exception(s) to the rule in Japanese Karate? Probably. Is Japanese Karate dead? Nope.
Most of us who are TCMA-at least the ones that I know of, are of this mindset, so this is a tired argument that has been played out on Bullshido and other forums.
So, that being said, is this thread going to continue for several pages? I'm done.

[Laukarbo]

I hate to repeat myself but,
"There are CMA schools that are hands on, stress conditioning,reaction drills, hard contact,ground fighting, and constant pressure testing, fighting with their Gung-Fu,with forms and demos taking less of a priority"
I realize that there are many "TCMA" schools that do not train this way, but there are more and more people coming up that are doing this. This does not mean that they are dropping their art, but are adding more training methods, developing attributes and training realistically. Are they the exception to the rule?
Probably. Is Kyokushin (one of) the exception(s) to the rule in Japanese Karate? Probably. Is Japanese Karate dead? Nope.
Most of us who are TCMA-at least the ones that I know of, are of this mindset, so this is a tired argument that has been played out on Bullshido and other forums.
So, that being said, is this thread going to continue for several pages? I'm done.

totally agree with that...I also have stopped bothering about those comments coming most partly from the mma section that tcma is outdated... Plus i dont feel like there is an urge to prove something...

[Eddie]

too many people out there (and here on this forum) think they can fight, but actually have very little experience. without practical experience, you pretty much in the same boat as the very same people you all mention who only plays forms. Thats exactly what my point was in a previous thread about nanquan too.

ring fighting and street fighting is different, but i bet you a guy with more ring experience than another (regardless of style) will probably kick the other guys a$$ in a street fight.

San Shou is pretty effective, and the people involved with the wushu federations keep on coming up with new and improved (scientifically) training methods. As things evolve, they seem to start merging modern methods with older concepts, which is good. It works. If that is what you consider wushu-nization , then maybe its not a bad thing at all. However, one can still keep your original style and fighting strategy in a ring sport like san shou. Having to fight with gloves only changes the variables, but the dynamics of the strikes are pretty much still the same. We can gwa sow chop even with 10 ounce gloves on. Whats so bad about that?

oh yes, and point sparring, light contact / semi contact, ‘traditional’ and all those other types of sparring we see at tournaments .... thats not real fighting. If you have never been knocked out or received a hard blow to the head, you probably wont know what hit you when you get hit in a street fight.

Regards to forms, contemporary forms training has some very cool training methods that can only help and improve your actual form and structure. I’d much rather have my son do contemporary wushu and san shou, than have him study karate or TKD. I have nothing against those styles, but I guess I have an affinity towards TCMA.

My younger brother was a national gymnast. At the same time, he also trained kung fu with us. He had a Russian gymnastic couch, and he was able to help us merge some of his gymnastic training methods with our kung fu training. Needless to say, my brother used to be a very very skilled fighter too.

One of our local guys from a neighboring school competes in all the disciplines in the competition. He does Nanquan and changquan (and the weapons), competes in Traditional Northern Shaolin forms, and still kicks a$$ in san shou too. Although hes from our ‘ rival’ school, I have tremendous amount of respect for that guy, mostly because he seem to be a good all round martial artist. Something more martial artists should strive for in my opinion.

[WinterPalm]

Wow, so much baloney to sift through.

Many arts are becoming wushuized or whatever the term is because they are either trying to become popular and cash in on the craze, or they are just simply not in tune with what their forebearers were doing and created and so have lost or just plain lack some crucial components of their arts which leads them to add impractical components.

Wushu will not help structure at all. Maybe flexibility and basic atheletic conditioning, but not kung fu skill, alignment, and power generation which goes beyond what the visible muscle-skeletal system creates.

I agree about the phony monks and their sideshows etc. I saw that Wheel of Life here a couple years ago and the only thing worth watching was the two kids holding their legs straight up for over five minutes and then falling flat on their groins! The 'monks' lacked correct alignment, breathing rhythm, and their supposed fighting sequences looked like that 'master' clip above. They tried too hard to rush thorugh without pausing to create the power necessary which lead to rushed and stale performances. In terms of wushu I have seen better performances from small national groups than these so-called monks. But on the drive for performance of form, many rush and do not carry the proper generation of power...sets and forms are meant to instill a way of movement and to train your body and to develop you...yes, you can demo these but all those things should be present. Most of the sets I do would lose to a wushu practioner in a competition because they are meant for development and not showmanship. That doesn't mean you can't make your sets faster and faster, but if you start getting sloppy or lacking in the integral mechanics, look out!

And why must people insist that evolution means something is getting better? All it means is an adaptation to the current environmenal stresses and demans placed on an organism at the current time. Many species, including our natural relatives, developed very specialized evolutionary traits but then were basically wiped out because they were too specialized or evolved in the wrong direction. Nature, culture, progress, and evolution are not guranteed pathes towards perfection or absolute betterment, and can often create disruptions and flaws in the overall health of the organism. This is not to say that change is not a good or a bad thing, but change does not necessarily mean better...

The question now posed: What is wushu adapting to?

[Eddie]

I have seen wushu athletes with much better structure and alignment than so called traditionalists. A lot of wushu athletes are more informed about their body mechanics than many of us. I say it again, there are way to many traditional kung fu players out there who are hugely over estimating their own skill. Unless you specifically practice fighting and fighting skill, your traditional kung fu is as useless as the contemporary form. Only difference though, the contemporary athlete probably spend more time on cardio and coordination than your average kung fu guy.

[B-Rad]

So far some of the best CMA people I've met were older folks with strong traditional background who've adapted the best modern training methods into their system. I don't like the direction the forms competition has been going the last decade, but a lot of the individual modern wushu training methods are superior to many traditional schools programs when trying to develop speed, agility, and power. Traditional has some great body conditioning methods, and partner drills ("iron body" type skills, grip training, etc.) And San Da and MMA are both excellent modern competition formats for testing some important fighting skills.

Unfortunately, there's so much martial arts bigotry in the CMA world, a lot of people are just blind to what other groups are doing.

[BigPandaBear]

Thanks you for your detailed reply. I understand now better what you meant with your previous post.
I will not comment on how I think the fighting would go in the old times as I was not around and mine would only be a speculation. Obviously, just to explain things clearly, I do not think that in the old times they were fighting like in the Kungfu movies, if that is what you thought I'm thinking.
Oh,.. by the way,.. the video you posted,... yeah ... we all know it sucks,....and we definitely were not well represented in that event.

Any way,... as much as I can agree with many of the points you have explained, I still feel to disagree that Wushu would reppresent the feature or evolution, simply because even if you look at TCMA only from the performance point of view, I still believe Wushu has nothing of martial and much of athleticism which in itself it deserves a lot of respect as much as gymnastic does.

Regards,

Luca

Hey, thanks for understanding where I'm coming from. I fully respect TCMAs, and why people practice them. Many of us here are simply going to have to agree to disagree. Nothing wrong with that really.