3 step push

[FunkySage]

Mu Fa Hok, its the same in SPM, sarm bo jin is everything.

To add more to this discussion a further question, is there more than one level of sanzhan?

[Weito]

Mufahok,

Thank you very much for the short impression of the clips. I am deeply impressed about the manifested spirit, so different then I have seen so far. Softness, but also Geng expression is very refined. I was able to collect many versions of Crane expressions, truly up to a 100. But this compilation is from a different level. Again, my thanks for sharing this footages. Hopefully we will be able to meet one day and cross our hands.

My excuse for giving Saam Tzien not the correct spot, but I am not that familiar with Fukien Boxing arts. I only heard that Saam Tzien (in Tai Chor) can be played in three levels.

Tit Sin Kuen – as done in my family - do have more levels. One level is the expression of the eight manifestations, linked with specific emotional expressions/ sensations. The path towards this level is one of many years. Still this does not mean that TSK can not be taught in the beginning. In our family the art of Iron Wire Boxing is not fixed. It is the engine, a way to create a 16 valve engine.

My students express that – after learning TSK –other forms Hung forms got a boost. This looping go on and on, while the big circles becomes smaller, and the Geng reach a more refined level.

The methods and principles of TSK are very close to STK. I strongly belief that they shared roots.

Gung Ji Fook Fu Kuen: I have problems with the idea that this form – as done in nowadays Hung branches – could have been done in other systems or districts. Although Siu Lam and Lo Han (Fut Ga ?) are dominantly there, it is a rather modern chorography, mostly a 100 years old. When I look closely to the ingredients of GJFFK, I notice a strong link of Cantonese skills in it, in the final choreography. Many Hung players do accept that the Fook Fu part is the oldest section of the set, with that I mean 100+ year old.

Thank you all,

Evert

[Mufahok]

“Ok. GM Gaocan's Luohan has two disparate components:

In the first (Outer) it is the practice of Yi Zhimei, Luohanquan, Fuhuquan, etc and common throughout SE Asia and their descendants.

The second (Inner) commences with the practice of Fuhu Luohan, Xianglong Luohan and others sometimes referred to as Shengong of which typically only few components were passed.”


Shaolin Master,

Sorry, really deviating here.

Have you heard of 1) Har San Hor (Tiger Descending Mountain) and 2) Lien Huay Koon (Lotus Fist) that is taught by some from Ven. Sek lineage?

Are you familiar with Huang Mei Ping of Nanyang Shaolin Pugilistics Association? Mei Ping was in China competing (sometime in the 80s) and was runner-up with “18 Bronze Man Fist”.

Heard of Sebastian Soh? He was (passed on a couple of years back) a student of Sifu Tan Choo Seng, another one of Ven. Sek students. Sifu Tan ran “Hua Tiong Pugilistic Club” in Katong Singapore.

Sebastian was thought of, by many, as one of the best Luohan Sifus of his generation. He used to teach in YMCA Palmer Road.

A pic of Soh http://www.acskarate.com/interact/da...newlohan-1.jpg

Thank you.

Ps : My apologies to those with no interest in the above. It’s just so hard to find anyone with experience related to Ven. Sek to talk to.

Sorry.

[Mufahok]

“That last video posted by Mufahok Babulien is indeed the 'loose" power that I personally so highly prize. What interests me considerably is the use of both arms in unison as opposed to the "tearing paper" concept of alternate forward and backward use of arms, as exhibited in the video posted by Mantis108.”

Yum Cha

Sorry for the deviation in my previous posts. Now to get back to subject proper:-

The “tearing paper” or “splitting” to use a more common terminology is done from the second form onwards in MingHe. This would be “BaBuLien” or “Eight Linked Steps”.

Often spoken as “the 2nd SanJin” by those in Fuzhou MingHe. I will try and post this form soon.

The “SanJin” form teach focus of energy derived from what we call the “earth” element i.e. the ground. Orthodox MingHe, like Mantis108, highlighted talked more about 5 elements concepts as opposed to ShiHe (Feeding Crane) or Dong Mu Yau (Fuzhou He) whereby each element is assigned a hand shape.

Beginners are taught to mentally picture this energy in the form of a ball and learning to move this “ball” up and down the body and thrusting this energy out with both hands.

This is very obvious in the SanJin 2 men drill that comes after learning the solo form. The teacher has to literally “touch hands” with every student to make sure that this is properly transmitted.

Correct me if I am wrong, you do many 2 men scrapping drills to get “Mo Kiu” right?

I think this is where Hakka and Fukien SanChin diverge a little. The emphasis for Hakka is more skewed towards developing strong bridge hands?

At Babulien level, 2 hands techniques are done in ying/yang combination. So instead of 2 either ying or yang hands, you do a pair of ying/yang combo.

This is more demanding; in the SanJin video clip posted, the Sifu started with 2 lifting (yang) palms. In Fuzhou this is call “poon chiu”.

In Babulien, you start with one hand lifting and the other pressing. “Poon Eg chiu” in Fuzhou. So energy in no longer sent out in unison but in a discordant manner.

Kind of like the “tearing” you described. This kind of energy is used in many techniques in the higher forms.

If you are familiar with Baji quan, think of this as similar to Baji’s “shearing”.

Tearing or splitting is also a major energy used in most MingHe qinna techniques.

Thank you.

ps the Babulien form you saw is from Fuzhou Ancestral Crane. Different from MingHe's Babulien.

[Lau]

Ls,

Making a step back to the original topic 3 step push. Pak Mei's nine step push is supposedly made up by doing the core of the 3 step push form 3 times making 3*3 = 9 step push. Especially after seeing Fuzhou Crane's BaBuLien I now wonder if there was a double handed push in the original 3 step push. Can any one confirm that?

Regards, Lau

[Crushing Fist]

How very interesting...

I always hesitate to comment but,


SD (which as we all know claims a southern chinese heritage) has a "San" form which has many similarities to those described and shown here.

San He Quan

which the older translation was given as San Njie or similar

this "form" which incorporates the controlled breathing and tension repeats the same set of three movements three times, finishing with a striking sequence and "release" of energy/tension.

It is one of the most central foundations of the art.

Now here is a question:

During the tension part of the form, the structure of the student is tested by sweeping, striking, and pushing.

Is this done in any of these other "San" training methods?

In English this form is often referred to as the Iron Man form, but has been translated as "three part form"

Any comments?

[Mufahok]

Hi,

Sorry, what’s “SD”?

Moving to the other part of your post;

Sanchin to train “iron body” or “iron shirt” is found in many styles including;

• Ngo Mui Pai. This Southern Fukien style left mainland and made Singapore home. Ngo Mui refers to Wu Mei; one of the 5 escapees of the Manchus burning of Southern Shaolin according to popular folklore. Very “hard” style emphasizing tough body conditioning using Sanchin methodology. Back in the late 70s/early 80s, Muhammed Ali (the boxer) visited Singapore. During part of his promo tour, he was invited to “chop” the throat of one such Ngo Mui players. The style got a little fame after this “performance”. Besides Singapore, Ngo Mui was also taught in Indonesia back in those days. Remember reading someplace that they have now spread westward to certain part of Europe. This style was led by the late GM Tan Shaw Koon.

• MingNam Tai Chor or Southern Grand Ancestor Boxing. Another southern style famous for “iron shirt” toughness. Training and test include taking kicks/hand strikes to many part of the body including the throat. Advanced students are tested with strikes using sticks and wooded log rammed into the mid torso.

• Many Karate styles also incorporate this kind of Sanchin conditioning in their training. Don’t know whether it’s still done but many Oyama karatekas were known to take baseball bats on their shinbones.

Thanks.

[Yum Cha]

“

Beginners are taught to mentally picture this energy in the form of a ball and learning to move this “ball” up and down the body and thrusting this energy out with both hands.

----> I know of this metaphore from my instruction in micro and macro cosmic orbit hei gung, "sui & di jau tin" but I think of that as something different to Pak Mei, more as a Daoist exercise. It has a lot in common with an indian meditation called "gundilini fire" (sp?). We visualise summonsing up a fireball from your dan tien, and spitting it out through your point of contact into your opponent, leaving nothing behind. This sounds like a fundamental difference.<-----

Correct me if I am wrong, you do many 2 men scrapping drills to get “Mo Kiu” right?

I think this is where Hakka and Fukien SanChin diverge a little. The emphasis for Hakka is more skewed towards developing strong bridge hands?

----> Yes, we do a number of "free form" scrapping drills to test the power and fluidity of combinations and the ability to deal with them on behalf of the partner. Yes, strong bridge hands are the first skill to develop, but likewise the sensitivity to capture and sok sau. The ability to choose/become smoke or iron bars. So I would conclude that the focus is not only on strong bridge, but definately includes it to a very significant extent.<------

Lau,
I have seen Jik Bo done in the "traditional" way, and likewise I have seen it converted into exercises that include additional techniques, including the double palm strikes. When I first learned it, the grab and pull was followed by the double palm push, and that was taught to me by the Yau Kung Mun Master Cheung Leung. He also made several other training versions as part of his practice.

I have been told that Jek bo was a training form for Gau Bo Twi as well, and it makes sense. As to what it was originally? I tend to think simpler as opposed to more complicated options.

[Shaolin Master]

Yum Cha/Lau,

Yes with Zhibu, there are few varieties including double push as well as grab and thrust, mo etc...

Mu Fahok,

Lianhua quan 莲花拳. yes
Xia Shan Hu ... I think we call it Meng Hu Xia Shan 猛虎下山 (Fierce Tiger descends mountain). so I would say maybe to that one.

We were associated with 少衆山 and 少雄山 predominantly.

Hua Zhong 华忠拳术健身学院 was one of the latter spurts off I think. Usually from more late batch of GM Gaocan's disciples.

Sebastion Soh I think was popular amongst the youths but not so much in mainstream Nanyang activities. I'd asked one of my friends in singapore but nowadays few can recall. From that pic he is definately one of the Luohan practitioners. I do not recollect Huang Meiping.

Where is your interest in these..have you practiced luohanquan before or is it just curiousity.

Kindest Regards
Wu Chanlong

[Mufahok]

Hi Shaolin Master,

I actually met quite a few Siao Lim folks in Singapore.

I knew Sebastian when he was teaching in Stevens Road Y. And later when he started his Clementi class, I visited a few times. During one of these visits, he did some incredible Lohan and something he called “Northern” YiZhiMei.

This man really got to be seen to be believed. His Lohan is really top-class. Honestly, have never met anyone since with his level of Lohan skill.

I met Mei Ping in a foot reflexology shop in People’s Park. The shop is owned by another Siao Lim Sifu. From him, I got a lot of details regarding early days training in Shuang Lim Si.

Also got acquainted with the late Sifu Chong Beng Joo – the “Iron Fist” of Siao Lim. Visited his class in SAFRA Toa Payoh and was deeply impressed by his no-nonsense Siao Lim training. I saw more sparring drills and sparring than forms.

Yes Siao Lim fascinates me. I collected, through friends, quite a bit of Siao Lim materials including anniversary performances videos etc.

No, I don’t do Lohan but my “research” encompasses Southern Lohan due to probable ties with BaiHe.

Thank you very much.

[WanderingMonk]

does someone have a clip of huzun quan in action?

thanks.

[Mufahok]

Sorry guys,

Got a little distracted in the “Ruan Dong” thread.

Got another clip here showing a portion of Fuzhou MingHe’s Ershiba or 28 steps. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thMcXdlk4h8

This clip should give you enhanced views of the “split” power usually seen at higher level MingHe training.

Thanks.

[samadhi_fire]

Hua Zhong 华忠拳术健身学院 was one of the latter spurts off I think. Usually from more late batch of GM Gaocan's disciples.

Sebastion Soh I think was popular amongst the youths but not so much in mainstream Nanyang activities. I'd asked one of my friends in singapore but nowadays few can recall. From that pic he is definately one of the Luohan practitioners. I do not recollect Huang Meiping.

Hi Shaolin Master,

FYI, Hua Tiong (Hua Zhong) was set up by Master Tan Choo Seng, disciple of GM Shi Gao Can. It's not a later spurt off.

Master Tan has recently retired and started teaching again. Hua Tiong also has a very strong presence in Johor Bahru. Cheers.

[Shaolin Master]

Samadhi_fire,

I understand and thanks but note the reference to establishment period:

e.g: earlier
1955 Siau Hong San
1956 Siau Tiong San
1958 Siew Tin San
etc.....

Latter
1966 Hua Tiong
1967 Siow Chong San


"Latter" meaning as in established after 1960 (i.e after Ven Sek left), per the above in terms of when commenced.

All are one family so .....

Thanks
Wu Chanlong