Style VS. User

[Knifefighter]

You cant fight the knife all day and still not control it, but fight the person, once the person is taken out, the knife is controlled. Anywho, this applies to all weapons not just one. Too many game plans (so to speak). If a guy throws a right hook punch to the left side of the head, not only can it be a hook punch, but a ridgehand, angle 1 attack (FMA) with club, stick, baseball bat, chain, etc an inside chop to neck, stab or slice with a knife to the side head or neck, round house or hook kick to same side of head / neck, etc. I just mentioned a bunsh of threats coming to the SAME ANGLE of attack, I dont need to defend against each one of them with 20 different counters/attacks.

Do you train/fight full contact against these different weapons?

[SevenStar]

Dont fear the knife!. Fear the person. Sure, we have to be aware of the blade, but the person and their intent does the real damage..... As I said, efficeincy. You cant fight the knife all day and still not control it, but fight the person, once the person is taken out, the knife is controlled. Anywho, this applies to all weapons not just one. Too many game plans (so to speak). If a guy throws a right hook punch to the left side of the head, not only can it be a hook punch, but a ridgehand, angle 1 attack (FMA) with club, stick, baseball bat, chain, etc an inside chop to neck, stab or slice with a knife to the side head or neck, round house or hook kick to same side of head / neck, etc. I just mentioned a bunsh of threats coming to the SAME ANGLE of attack, I dont need to defend against each one of them with 20 different counters/attacks. The only thing that will drastically vary is the finish techniques.... Weapon or not, these attacks are coming to angle one, unless the attack changes direction (which is another story) They can be dealt with quite easily without to much change in entry. This of course is speaking in general. The more skill an attacker has, obviously more attention will be placed on entering or keeping a particular range.....

Take Care
Sifu Ron.

it's the same angle, yes, the the weapon is different, which does indeed change the tactic. Try this: angle 3 - hook punch to the body. cover and absorb it. same angle, roundhouse to the body. cover and absorb it. same angle, lead pipe - cover and absorb it.

even sticking with your angle 1 example, you can step in and snake your arm around his, you can step in and strike him in the bicep, etc. but if I have a baseball bat, you will have to step in deeper than you would if I was empty handed. That alone changes things significantly.

[Ray Pina]

I understand what Citong Shifu is saying and I agree with him on one level.

I do not train to use A to counter B and C to counter D and so on and so forth. I train shielding and wedging. I will use the same right lead attack/defense against a right or left sided punch or kick.... the same shape will counter attack and cover me (adjust slightly with elbows) against all these attacks ..... of course, the other guy has been trained for his attack to penetrate all defenses/attacks. It depends on who's timing, power, intention is better, etc. But I agree with you.

However, if you have a blade instead of using that shape and charging in deeply to get inside of your attack... I focus that shape/shield/wedge 100% against the arm that's holding the weapon. Same movement, just more respect given to that weapon hand.

If I see you have a blade before that, I may pick a different, more suitable shape: probably my back blocking hand to draw your strike and allow my lead arm to get futher up your arm to control it's power source..... I'll try to limit how much you can wield your wrist to slice with my body but very well may take cuts on the outside of my forearm. Maybe even shoulder.

Knives are nasty. My master always says pole fighting is like men's tennis, you can predict who's going to win with some certainty. Knife fighting is like women's tennis.... you never know who's going to win.

Very sharp object on very moveable apendage.... even if you got me (and I have a knife, which I do) I got you too. Terrible.

[WinterPalm]

Cough... Bullsh!t... Cough.

Somebody is lying here.

Either you about the "five second disarm" or the knife guy about his training... more than likely, you.

LOL @ disarming and immobilizing a trained knife fighter in 5 seconds.

Somebody is living in a fantasy bubble.

No fantasy here...although it might have been closer to eight seconds.
This fellow was a respected teacher, albeit only early thirties, but had been doing this for most of his life.
Why do you not think that my Sifu's training can deal with this? Because he isn't training in FMA? He has spent years of his life in law enforcement.

Real hardcore kung fu is not silly, a game, or nonsense. You are obviously very ignorant of what a master of legitimate kung fu can do.

Also, I don't think it is necessary for you to swear. I can understand you don't believe any of this, you have your own agenda in these regards, but I'm not here to BS or lie...just contribute to an interesting conversation.

[hjt]

i guess no one saw the video, or just in denial that when you try to defend yourself from a knife attack, 99% of the times, you end up hurt or dead. as the video shows

[TenTigers]

denial just ain't a river.
one-Ray, thinking that you will take a few cuts is not a very good mindset. Obviously, I am not saying that you should not expect to be cut-of course you will. You really need to see the video with the hanging meat thingy.
Ok, I don't know the exact time for bleed-out, but on the upper arm, you can get cut on the brachial artery-bleed-out is a matter of several minutes.
Subclavian Artery-pretty instantaneous, aorta--done. likewise with carotid, and jugular. Femoral-less than three minutes if I recall-might even be a minute and a half. Other tahn the aorta-these are mostly in the extremities, in relatively unprotected areas-only because most aren't aware of them.
Getting onto angles of attack-that is textbook logic. The reality is that a blade is considered a serpent. It is alive. It can turn, twist,wriggle,strike. You grab my wrist-I rotate my hand-you bleed. You trap me, I wriggle just a bit-you bleed. If I pull my hand free,imagine someone pulling,wriggling, twisting their arm out of your grasp-while holding a razor-sharp blade. You will get cut on the way out-in several places, or perhaps in one ling, jagged,slice from end to end.
In many arts, such as Sayoc Kali, there is striking, trapping, running, leaking,also grappling with a knife.
I think this is the same mindset that "Traditional Martial Artists" have when they would speak of using their stance or strikes against a seasoned MMA guy, only to find out what really happens when they get into it. People need to actually experience good FMA, such as Sayoc kali, Pekita Tirsia,etc to fully get an understanding of just how dangerous a blade is.

[neilhytholt]

All he's saying is you shouldn't expect that you'll be able to not get cut.

So assuming you might get cut a little bit, would you rather leave your major arteries and veins open to get cut?

[hjt]

nowadays most ppl use boxcutter to attack ppl with. look at it, its small and it does alot of damage, it may not stab but it creates large open wounds, it splits your flesh wide open.

[TenTigers]

ok, here's the scenerio. we're fighting, I have a blade, you can or can't-doesn't matter. I cut you on the arm-not a deep cut, not in a crucial area-just a slice on the forearm.
You feel the cut. You see the blood. You have a reaction. Mentally,physically-you will now experience fear, hesitation,panic. you might go into shock, have a vaso-vagal reaction. I will dance around you and stalk you, avoiding your moves-strikes, while slashing, again, at your extremeties. Not life threatening cuts, mind you, but you will bleed. You will KNOW you are bleeding.
Up to this point-Iwas being merciful. You continue your attack, I will finish you.
or, I can step back and watch you bleed. Depends on where you want to go with this, and whether we step it up or not.
Simply one scenerio-not trying to be all macho-simply showing how it can be done-easily.

[TenTigers]

good point about the boxcutter. Try your disarms with that.
years ago, when I was training (briefly-I'm not a representative of his style) with Chris Sayoc, he told us to fashion training blades. I made one to look like a boxcutter. He looked at it and smiled. End of story.

[hjt]

All he's saying is you shouldn't expect that you'll be able to not get cut.

So assuming you might get cut a little bit, would you rather leave your major arteries and veins open to get cut?

a cut is a cut, you have to remember that knives nowadays are made differently from days of old. back then you had straight edge blades, now you have your blades that are serrated, which can create a nasty wound, serrated blades rip your skin apart as oppose to slicing, even you protect your veins, arteries, family jewels and etc etc a cut will still hurt alot

[neilhytholt]

Edit ... anyways I think I'll drop this conversation now...

[Citong Shifu]

it's the same angle, yes, the the weapon is different, which does indeed change the tactic. Try this: angle 3 - hook punch to the body. cover and absorb it. same angle, roundhouse to the body. cover and absorb it. same angle, lead pipe - cover and absorb it.

even sticking with your angle 1 example, you can step in and snake your arm around his, you can step in and strike him in the bicep, etc. but if I have a baseball bat, you will have to step in deeper than you would if I was empty handed. That alone changes things significantly.

As our style would say (as far as entering), you move in or out as needed, if you need to move in deep, then deep it is or if only a few inches needed then move in only a few inches. People with long arm and legs are just as hard to enter as the baseball bat person. Different strengths need to be evaluated (is the person super strong, strong, average, etc). Is a person thick, average, thin, etc. All aspects should be judged, IMO.

We train as full contact as much as we can, keeping some safety and room for error!!!!!! This is how we learn, errors. I have some red man gear, but most use gear to protect the vital areas. The non-padded areas are open for conditioning purposes...

Yes, I understand your point on the different weapons and I dodnt think anyone is silly enpugh to snake a bladed weapon apposed to a stick or club. I dont even show snaking and coiling a bladed weapon due to the cuts and slice that one can deliver to the limbs and body........ Anywho, take care.

Sifu Ron.

[Ray Pina]

They now sell electrical training knives who's blade can zap you from settings ranging from "ouch" to "FU(K!"

I know how dangerous a live blade can be. On a playground as a kid I got stabbed with a tool that entered and exited my bicep and then cut later in life by a folding blade..... neither time did I "plan" to be cut. I didn't PLAN on getting my nose broken in my last fight either. You prepare and respond the best you can, and I am here to write this with only some minor scars and a nose that thankfully chipped down wards instead of smashed sideways.

I'll face the possibility of a broken face again and put myself in harms way for something I enjoy. Again, knife fighting is very serious. No matter how you train it's never like facing someone (even a little girl) swinging a life blade intent to kill you. A rubber blade never sinks your heart when you see it coming..... it's the natural response you have at that moment that determines life or death. That's accumalative knowledge. Not a blade seminar, DVD or even a few years training.

[Knifefighter]

No fantasy here...although it might have been closer to eight seconds.
This fellow was a respected teacher, albeit only early thirties, but had been doing this for most of his life.

Please let me know which FMA teacher this was. I'd like to confirm this with him. You can PM me if you'd prefer not to post it on the forum.

Why do you not think that my Sifu's training can deal with this? Because he isn't training in FMA? He has spent years of his life in law enforcement..

Because I have been training knife fighting for 25 years. Twice a year, I participate in the Dog Brothers gatherings where stick and knife fighters come from all over the world to fight. I have also been involved in a variety of different combative systems during those 25 years. In all my years, I have never seen one person come close to what you are claiming.

What does your sifu charge for a seminar? If it can be confirmed that he can do what you are claiming, I'd like to fly him down here for the next gathering to do a seminar. We will probably have at least a hundred people who would be willing to pay to see him do this and have him teach some of his techniques for doing so.

BTW, I am serious about this. Empty hand vs. knife is kind of my “holy grail.” I’ve been working for years on getting this down, but I am still missing a piece or two. I am always on the lookout for what other people are doing in this realm. In addition to my empty hand vs. knife stuff, I know there is the Red Zone program, the Dog Bros “Die Less Often” Dog Catcher, Demi Barbarito's stuff and a couple of other pretty good things out there. However, none of us are consistently able to do what you are claiming your sifu can do. If this is true, I am definitely interested. I couldn’t care less whether it is FMA or “legitimate kung fu”... It’s all good if it works.