The difference is - the folks that claim to teach 'samurai' arts (usually) have a legitimate lineage for their art. Monks have an ancient history. Descendents of Buke have a rich and extensive history. Koryu have a rich and extensive history
Both. Not saying anything about Obata, but as I said - everyone associated with Nawa, including the man himself, repeatedly stated that he was never taught or practised ninjutsu.Originally Posted by Stranger
I'm not saying that the Bujinkan is the epitomy of fraud - as I and others said earlier, Takamatsu was a legit expert in both Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu and Kukishin Ryu. The acts of others are no excuse.Originally Posted by Stranger
Not exactly.Originally Posted by Stranger
Hatsumi wasn't around when the fire occured, and no-one had challenged Takamatsu to produce documentation because at the time, he was a practitioner of the two arts he legitimately dedicated his life to - HTYR and KTH.
Fire destroyed the Kuki family residence - destroying the Kukishinden Tenshin Hyoho densho. Takamatsu reproduced them for the Kuki family.
Again - that is Kukishin Ryu, NOT anything to do with ninjutsu.
No-one disputes the fact that Takamatsu was an expert in Kukishin Ryu and Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu.
Perhaps I wasn't clear - I never said anything about "invalidating all that could be learned" from Hatsumi.Originally Posted by Stranger
I simply said - Hatsumi's ninjutsu arts have no historical verification and were likely a creation of Takamatsu. It sticks in my craw that with his outstanding marketing skills, and the popularity of his art, he is regarded by the mainstream as "the only legit ninjutsu guy" (as well as the offshoots of the Bujinkan)
His version of ninjutsu history is often the version you see in low-class popular martial arts books, and nearly everyone who gets interested in ninjutsu buys one of his books and takes him for a legit ninja.
I just like to present the alternative viewpoint - That his teacher was an expert teacher in two koryu - Hontai Yoshin Ryu and Kukishin Ryu - and may have seen or learned some others (Asayama Ichiden Ryu for example) that he passed on to Mr. Hatsumi.
But the 'ninjutsu' ryuha were most likely invented by Takamatsu.