Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Golden Tiger]

Sorry about that The Xia, I went back as far as I could in the time I had. My apologies.

Green Cloud, I don't mind being slammed one bit as long as the slamming is based in soo sort of personal experience. But just jumping on the band wagon as so many do here, well, I get annoyed with that.

[Judge Pen]

The problem is the title of the thread it self " Is SD real" So people are inclined to coment and speak there minds.

greencloud.net

Yep, and the thread was started by a poster with a total on "1" post on his account. Troll anyone?

Regarding Su Kong, I don't worry about it. Part of me would love for a book in China (or anywhere outside of SD's camp) to turn up referencing him as the long-lost Grand-master or whatever, just to see the fur fly around here (pun intended), but my point is whether he was real or not (and you would think that if he were real there would be independant verification somewhere) it doesn't matter in my training. If I'm asked about SD's history by a student, I'm very candid and it starts with "the story goes . . . . " Then I tell them that I think our material migrated and blended and became what it is today.

[Yao Sing]

More appropriately the thread should be called 'Is Shaolin-Do real Shaolin?' as that seems to be the issue in contention.

We've acertained that it is a real martial art although what variety has yet to be proven (or disproven).

[Judge Pen]

More appropriately the thread should be called 'Is Shaolin-Do real Shaolin?' as that seems to be the issue in contention.

We've acertained that it is a real martial art although what variety has yet to be proven (or disproven).

I guess we have to define what "real shaolin" is. Good luck doing that.

[The Xia]

Sorry about that The Xia, I went back as far as I could in the time I had. My apologies.

No problem.

[BoulderDawg]

Here's a question for some of you SDers (Black Belt and above):

Our school has frequent festivals (especially during the summer) and I try to make it to all of them if I can. We have one coming up called "Chi Kai Po An Sho Chang" or "Drunken Beggar Stick & Bowl".

Now I think it's important to learn as many forms as you can. However, for the life of me, I don't understand a form where, for all intent purposes, you walk around with a bamboo coffee cup covering the toes on your foot.

Does anyone out there know about this form?

[The Xia]

I'm sure everyone has seen this picture. http://www.shaolin-do.com/masters/SKong.jpg
And here is another. http://www.centralshaolin.com/shaoli...ong2_close.jpg

However, pictures of someone with a disease doesn't prove that he is the "first grandmaster" of Shaolin. If this were true, he'd be recognized outside of Shaolin Do circles. Which he isn't.
The Su Kong story flies in the face of Kung Fu history. Historically speaking, the Southern Temple was burned before Su Kong is said to have existed. Someone with more knowledge of the Southern Shaolin Temple's timeline can elaborate.

[Golden Tiger]

Here's a question for some of you SDers (Black Belt and above):

We have one coming up called "Chi Kai Po An Sho Chang" or "Drunken Beggar Stick & Bowl".

Now I think it's important to learn as many forms as you can. However, for the life of me, I don't understand a form where, for all intent purposes, you walk around with a bamboo coffee cup covering the toes on your foot.

Does anyone out there know about this form?

It's a relatively easy form (1st Black material in the east) that use the stick for quick jabs, swinging strikes, and other hits and uses a cup as weapon (think striking open handed holding the cup bottom to palm.) It does have a few hard moves in it but most of all, its a fun form to learn and do. And for the record, the cup is only on the foot for a very short sequence (at least it used to be).

[Judge Pen]

I'm sure everyone has seen this picture. http://www.shaolin-do.com/masters/SKong.jpg
And here is another. http://www.centralshaolin.com/shaoli...ong2_close.jpg

However, pictures of someone with a disease doesn't prove that he is the "first grandmaster" of Shaolin. If this were true, he'd be recognized outside of Shaolin Do circles. Which he isn't.
The Su Kong story flies in the face of Kung Fu history. Historically speaking, the Southern Temple was burned before Su Kong is said to have existed. Someone with more knowledge of the Southern Shaolin Temple's timeline can elaborate.

The thing is the Southern Shaolin Temple is equally steeped in myth. There is a debate as to its place in marital history and some will say that a Southern shaolin temple didn't even exist. Anyone claiming lineage to a southern shoulin temple is probably on shaky historical footing as far as documented marital history goes.

Now there are plenty of southern styles out there and many of them claim lineage to the 5 elders or the southern temple, but how much of it can be documented? Why do you think that the southern forum is such a hotbed of lienage debate? Ever heard of the "Green-grass" monk? His existence is also debated, yet a very well respected branch of CLF lays claim to a lineage that runs through him.

[The Willow Sword]

Ive already proved that Su kong is not "Su kong". if you, who are interested in my bit of research i shared on this particular thread, go back to page 44 of this thread and read on from there. i posted up two pictures, one of the alleged su kong and the other is the true identity and a pic of the same person(just not as cleaned up as the person is in the suit and tie) Su Kong's name is "Li Baoshu" and was part of the beijing zoo exhibit in china back in the 1930's. there is no mention of him as being connected with any martial arts or the shaolin temple whatsoever.

The other pic i found of Su kong/ Li baoshu was from an article on a website that i just stumbled upon(having nothing to do with the shaolin temple or martial arts). i noticed right off the bat the similarity between that pic and the dressed up pic of what the Sd'ers claim as Su kong. well i began a correspondance with the man who created that article( prof.Frank Dikotter) and emailed him the pic of su kong. He corroberated that it was the same person(being that this man is a professor of geneological studies at the university of london in the UK) who better qualified to make such a comparison than someone of that background? well i was convinced and it doesnt take much smarts to realize that the two pics ARE the same person(hehe unless you are a brainwashed cultist who believes every single thing that is told to you) Now there are many references to that particular disease and there are pics of OTHERS who have the affliction and they all look similar in that they have the disease, but if you use alittle smarts and a little common sense you can obviously see the differences in facial features and such. but with the two pics of li baoshu one all messed up to look more like a lion and the gussied up photo, you see them to be the same person in everyway and like i said before, it was corroborated by a legitamate source and a person with a degree in geneology. so as far as i am concerned the CRUXT of the SD myth IS that picture of the alleged "hairy grandmaster"

SO anyway go back to page 44 of this thread and read from there my posts and what i have shared. yeah its downplayed by just about every loyalist sd memeber here(the denial is staggering) and i also give the exact BOOK of where that older photo of li baoshu was taken(not the dressed up one) the one that prof. Dikotter sourced to put that other pic in his article.

the suit and tie photo is an enigma indeed because the book that it came from is no longer in print and otherwise unavailable. but the Book in question is Supposed to be at the University library in Lexington KY. but i wouldnt imagine that you would find it there anymore. given that the HUB of SD is in lexington.

anyway, this whole thread seems to run in cycles where people bring up the same things but just spin it in a different way. if you have the time go back to the first 60 pages of this thread and you will see what i mean.

(now watch the denial start up again and the poo fly)

TWS

[The Xia]

There is an archeological site that is believed to be the remains of the Southern Shaolin Temple. The thing is, the "grandmaster" story goes against the Five Elders stories. The Five Elders story varies, but is recounted by various lineages and folk tales. The "grandmaster" story is only recognized by Shaolin Do.

[The Xia]

Great research Willow Sword!

[brucereiter]

Historically speaking, the Southern Temple was burned before Su Kong is said to have existed. Someone with more knowledge of the Southern Shaolin Temple's timeline can elaborate.

hi xia,

as i understand it from sources outside of sd, the "southern" shaolin temple was not just one building in one location but was many buildings in the same part of china. all doing there own thing with only loose ties to each other. i really do not know the facts as there are so many versions of the "truth".

i think the time line would depend on the definition of what / where the southern temple is. was it one building? and was this one building destroyed in the mid 1600's?

was it one main building that was destroyed in the mid 1600's and several smaller temples in the surrounding area that continued to practice martial arts of some sort until the early 1900's?

i wish i had a way to verify but i dont. does this take away from my skill/understanding and my enjoyment of the art i practice? no it does not ...

[kungfujunky]

as far as the su kong pics go my personal opinion is that it is just a pic used to convey what he looked like.

there are no pics out there of ie chang ming either so a painting is used. it stands to reason that there are no pics of su kong since he was a monk in a temple where such things were not done.

wether this is true or not i dont know but i will ask gmt when i see him again about it

[BoulderDawg]

Not that it effects the way I feel about the art but I've also wondered why there were no pictures of Le.

The man lived in modern times and was suppose to be one of the best...It looks like someone would have taken his picture.