Pai An

[Oso]

i wish we had some video to compare on this. not very tight on the terminology and I didn't get to see the ba bu pai an that yu shan did though I've seen clips of mantis108 doing it.

the leaking palm is, I think, a left hand strike to the side of the head/neck done with the inside of the hand, palm up?

my hung gar teacher was big on the concept of 'drawing' and we spent a lot of time sparring with him pointing out, retrospectively, what he had done to draw me.

[yu shan]

I`m with you on the terminology Oso, I need to keep a note pad on me when Kevin is talking.

Let`s go over Pai An next week, I have forgotten how far you got into it.

[Oso]

sounds good.

not very far:

for side A:

clear and right hook punch

right double seal (my right hand seals both hands to the body)

left side palm (leaking palm?)

left fung, right straight punch

repeat

[-N-]

for side A:

clear and right hook punch

We use palm here.

right double seal (my right hand seals both hands to the body)

We don't go so far forward into the other person's body with the right hand. Just enough to disrupt his handwork for the left palm to get in. We do less sticking/pressing/trapping with the right hand so that the other person has less chance to take advantage of the contact.

We don't call this one double sealing/serng fung. We call this one just fung. If we use 2 hands on the other person's arm, we call that one double sealing/serng fung.

left fung, right straight punch

This is where we transition from the a hard fast low visibility palm strike, to leaking downward with a sharp momentary left fung that floats after contact. The right straight punch/tung chui dives in like going up and over a bridge. Timing of the right hand is that it just barely clears the fung motion of the left.

For us, the float is critical because it allows a faster followup motion when you leak out to fung again and right palm strike. This is one of the places where people stick/listen too rigidly. Here is where I ask people to use minimal energy once the left fung has served it's purpose. Mantis relies on dynamic transitioning between explosiveness and emptiness.

(These last details are related to the recent speed thread on MQ)




N.

[Oso]

thanks.

the clip I have of Master Shi working w/ yu shan has a bunch of variations I haven't even tried to work out.

all the 'terminology' i used is strictly my interpretation of the movement. I called it a double seal due to trapping both his arms with just one of mine.

This is where we transition from the a hard fast low visibility palm strike, to leaking downward with a sharp momentary left fung that floats after contact. The right straight punch/tung chui dives in like going up and over a bridge. Timing of the right hand is that it just barely clears the fung motion of the left.

I think this is the same...yu shan?

For us, the float is critical because it allows a faster followup motion when you leak out to fung again and right palm strike. This is one of the places where people stick/listen too rigidly. Here is where I ask people to use minimal energy once the left fung has served it's purpose. Mantis relies on dynamic transitioning between explosiveness and emptiness.

the same too, i think. that's how I play that move anyway.

I always teach to never apply too much force to soon...or to late for that matter...so, timing on the applicatoin of force is crucial. If you give them the energy too soon then they can read you and trap/draw you.

but, that's the beauty of it all

[mantis108]

Hi Yu Shan,

I got a call from Mantid1 that you are going to meet in October. I hope you guys will have fun.

Hi -N-, Oso and All,

Thanks -N- for the great input. I think I will ask Mantid1's help to repost my version of Pai An on the Youtube for TaiChiMantis and others' benefit. It would be great to have Mantiscool's clip on there too but he doesn't seem to be around much these days. May be he's busy. Mike Martello alerted me to an old footage of the 8 step Babu Pai An. I think it's great that 8 Step have such archives. Unfortunately, their concern of internal politics prevented more of these great treasures to be shared openly. I respect their position on the matter and we will just leave it at that. I do greatly appreciate Mike's sharing with me.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[mantid1]

Here you go Mr 108.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGom3Z7dPdY

Cant wait for Yushan to make the trip up. He is very good and I am very fortunate to have him as a "Mantis Mentor".

[mantis108]

Thanks, my friend. Wow, you are fast!*two thumbs way up*

Mantis108

[MantisCool]

OK, Mr. Mantis108, I read you! I will always be around to share when necessary.

Here is my clip on our version of Pai An.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFXdvDQVf0Y

Regards
khoo

[18elders]

couldn't open clip

[mantis108]

Thank you very much, my friend. It's great to the clip again. Our versions are pretty similar IMHO.

Hi 18 Elders,

I think Youtube was doing some maintainances. The clip was slow in loading for me but it opened fine. So...

Warm regards

Robert

[lapu_squared]

Great thread on Pai An. Just thought I'd share some thoughts from a traditional 8-Step perspective. Pai An is the most advanced 2-man set, because it requires not only application of techniques (as with 7 Palm) and control over distance (as with Li Pi), but also a lot of sticking and listening to the opponent to guide your movements. Also, it's very important to us that each technique be executed "for real." For example, if you don't block, you get hit. Or another example, if you don't break the connection in the opponent's shoulder when he's using a hook, the opponent still has the power to follow through with the hook, and so he does, throwing you off balance and "out of the game." If you don't apply the right pressure in the right way at the right time, you lose. I'm not sure how much of this comes across in the video of Mr. Wu and H.C. Chang, since they were performing for an audience and obviously not trying deliberately to throw each other off. However, I think you can see the hint of what I'm talking about in the "sticking, following, folding, and bumping" that Mike Dasargo mentioned in the "New 8-Step Videos" thread.

Many thanks to Mantid1 and MantisCool for sharing videos of your Pai An. I always find it a joy to see parallel versions of what I have learned, since it so often provides new insights. Now I feel like I have a better grasp of what 7-Star is like. I'd also be curious to know how other 8-Step people practice Pai An, if any other 8-Step lineages out there have some video they can share. I've seen Mr. Wu's and I know Shifu Chang's, both of which are virtually identical. Is there anyone from James Shyun's lineage with some video to share? Or, any videos from other non-8-Step, non-7-Star styles? The more, the merrier.