Ideomotor Response

[imperialtaichi]

Hello Everyone,

Does anyone know much about Ideomotor Response?

Is it related to what we do, when the body moves by itself?

If so, is it related to CTS?

Can we manipulate the opponent's IR to make him/her bounce himself/herself out without much of our own physical effort?

Is this why we see sometimes some of those really weird demos?

Cheers,
John

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Hi John: I don't think there is any relevant connection between the Connective Tissue System (CTS) and Ideomotor Response (IMR).. at some level IMR is a subconscious activity dependent on intent.. CTS, if uninhibited, can interpret and respond to stimulus without engaging mental processes.. recall the bumped vase scenario, where without thought you respond accurately to prevent the conclusion of a mistake.. no thought, conscious or subconscious, just instantaneous action, accurate quick and appropriate.. IMR seems to be tangled in subconscious agendas or spiritualist contrivances.. it seems to be relatively slow in its manifestation, like a calculated response.. I could be wrong, though.. my familiarity with IMR is a bit limited..

Be well...

[Kaitain(UK)]

The IMR is the basis of Ting jin as far as im concerned. It is basically the idea that a thought will manifest in an unconscious movement.

You can do this for yourself - get a pendulum (anything that has some inertia to it when hanging). Hold it in your hand so it draps over the side of your fist - then concentrate on the end of the pendulum and "will" it to move forward and back, then left and right, then will it to stop, circle clockwise and anti-clockwise. The will manifests in unconscious physical responses.

Now - a Mentalist develops his sensitivity to these movements in order that he can appear to read someone's mind. For instance I can tell which corner of a room someone is thinking of by touching their hand and getting them to think of it.

How is it useful to taiji? The theory (and my experience is consistent with this) is that a conscious movement is preceded by an unconscious one (the IMR), and sufficient listening ability enables someone to detect the unconscious movement before the conscious movement manifests. This is basically Ting jin in pushing hands imho- you can do it already, it's just been developed unconsciously.

It is a hard thing to develop conscious ability with - unless you are interested in becoming a Mentalist I wouldnt recommend bothering with it. My experience is that the conscious skill required for 'psychic' feats of magic does not translate to the skill required when pushing hands - both are taking advantage of the IMR, but they are not complementary.

Bob - IMR is instant, it's just the conscious reading or manipulatin of it that is slow (at first)

Still learning about ICS - reading The Western Gate - a great read, thanks for the recommendation.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi John,

The ideomotor effect is a response to subconscious thought. It appears to be random or spontaneous because we are unaware of the connection to our mind. When we become aware of the connection it no longer appears to be automatic or spontaneous and we see it for what it is, a reaction to thought.
_____________________________________________

Hi Bob,

I think your view on the dropped vase is incomplete. It does involve thought. Here is why:

Consider a dropped pencil. I may or may not react to catch a dropped pencil, but most likely I will react to catch a dropped vase. Why? There is a difference in value. A vase is more valuable and more likely to be seriously damaged by falling so I will react according to the value I place upon what I have dropped. My unconcern for a dropped pencil is because I value it less. My concern for a vase is because I value it more. I will value a priceless vase more than a dime store vase. If I react to catch a pencil it is most likely motivated by convenience, I don’t want to bend over to pick it up. If I react to the vase it is most likely do to its value. I don’t want to bear the cost or inconvenience of replacing it.

Values are a product of thought which is a function of mind. I have thoughts within my mind that determine meaning and value and these motivate my actions.

Value is a contrived condition of thought. If I did not recognize the reality and therefore value of the vase I would have no reason to catch it and thus would not catch it. A reaction based upon “no thought” cannot consider value. Value is a characteristic of thought. So my CTS response is motivated and directed by thought. If there is no thought there is no value and without value there is no need to catch the vase. CTS is a physical response to thought, but it is a different kind of thought than thought as expressed in the linear fashion of words.

Most people do not consider what it means or what really occurs when we say, “to react without thought”. Reacting with “no-thought” does not mean without thinking. Reacting without thought means, “without thought expressed as words”. Because we are conditioned to think in words we consider that thinking “is the words”, but words are only the expression of the thought, not the thought itself. Thought occurs instantaneously. A thought is a holistic condition, the “undifferentiated fog of knowing” I have referred to in the past. When I translate thought into words a knowing that is instantaneous becomes subject to a linear expression, which occurs over time. Thought is instantaneous; it is the expression of thought as words that takes time.

Spontaneously catching a dropped vase is motivated by a thought response that is non-linear. It “appears” as NO THOUGHT because we have not trained ourselves to perceive thought as it simply IS in its unconditioned state.

Now, what does it take to physically catch the vase? Coordination of movement. Coordination of movement is subject to training. The better my trained coordination the more likely I will catch the vase.

My ability to catch the vase is determined by perception that it is falling, the interpretation of the meaning and consequence of it landing (The vase’s value to me.) and my level of trained coordination.

So CTS contributes to my ability to catch the vase, but it isn’t CTS what does the thinking or the catching. Thought motivates my response which is influenced by my coordination. Whether CTS is activated or not is determined by the amount of linear thinking in words that occurs to interfere with my stimulus/response reaction.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Hi Scott: I both agree and disagree.. Yes, the perception of value is a consideration of response.. but, it is conceived as thought and stored as memory.. now, to go a little further in the theories of CTS, there is evidence that suggests that memory is stored in the CTS.. as inherent vibrations, not unlike music.. the suggestion that the CTS responds apart from conscious mental processing is based on the theory that the CTS processes stimulus and responds according to preconceived priorities.. rather than engage the analytical thought processes, the CTS applies the preprogrammed priorities consistent with the situation.. a process akin to intuiting.

You have touched on a very critical issue, for me..

A thought is a holistic condition, the “undifferentiated fog of knowing” I have referred to in the past. When I translate thought into words a knowing that is instantaneous becomes subject to a linear expression, which occurs over time. Thought is instantaneous; it is the expression of thought as words that takes time

This is a well presented description of our situation, and representative of the issue we discuss.. the mind, as an interface between body and spirit, translates pure thought into words for analytical purposes.. and, we hold great debates and meaningful conferences in the great chambers of the mind.. we discuss anything from the meaning of life to favorite music in our minds.. but, when we think with words we hold conversations in our minds.. who are we talking to? We are talking to ourselves! we already know what we are saying and we already know how we will respond.. The CTS, as you suggest, simply bypasses the "small talk", and effects appropriate action based on the sum of our experiences to date.. The mind reaches into the memories and treats the memories like a large library, searching for references to develop a solution to any focused condition.. during this analytical process the condition of focus on one or, at best three, issue(s) excludes other solutions.. from the CTS perspective, there is no "focus" per se, all solutions present themselves and the appropriate solution simply fits the situation and satisfies predetermined priorities.. a bypassing of internal dialogue and analysis.. i sense that this is what is described as "internalizing"..

I am also fond of the description of an "undifferientiated fog of knowing".. aspects of that fog will either be translated into words for thoughtful consideration.. or, expressed "intuitively" through the effects of CTS.. Considering that the CTS is present surrounding every cell in our bodies, and present inside each cell down to the molecular level.. it is easy to see how the mind/CTS interaction is complimentary.. the CTS permits us to be present in the moment while the mind affords the luxury of thoughtful consideration.. LOL, not that there is an "actual" difference.. just two sides of the same coin..

Be well...

[extrajoseph]

Is it possible that IMR is CTS not getting the feed-back it suppose to have?

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Bob,

That is an excellent post; I quite agree with you. It is the internalized (programmed, conditioned) priorities that are translated as the spontaneous and instantaneous response of the body, including the CTS in my opinion.

There is ample evidence that cells hold memory. There are numerous documented cases of transplant recipients who perceive and even manifest characteristics of the personality of their organ donor. So I am in total agreement with you here!

[Ronin22]

Wow, great stuff....

Are you guys suggesting that we shouldn't think so much just mererly react? With regards to the example of simply reaching for a cup, in our minds we might say "reach for the cup" to ourselves and thus reacting but is the view to be taken to just reach for it without the chatter? I don't know how that can be done with out some sort of distraction, such as talking on the phone but knowing you want a cup and at that point it becomes a clean reaction with no reall thought. No?

I'm wondering how this would play into a situation I had the other day. I was driving on the highway and I cut someone off (yes I admit it, bad move) After I cut this person off he goes flying past me and does the same to me, flipping me the bird , swearing his head off. Now, we were in rush hour so traffic does come to stop so i started thinking about how this would play out if he gets out of the car. We did in fact stop and I'm jacked up as well as he I presumed so I could feel my thinking wasn't the clearest but started to visualize what I would do if he came out of the car with a bat or with a knife. I do carry a couple of different weapons in my car and i started thinking about when to pull out what depending on if he came at me with something. They weren't clear thoughts either it was like I would visualize him coming out of the car with a bat but "talk" inside my head if he has a bat grab the pistol. Then had visualizations/ flashes of when he got to the car if he took a swing at me this way I would do "that" type of thing. Nothing happened thankfully but after reading these posts it got me to wondering what effect all the vizualizing and back chatter would have on my actions.

Any thoughts?


Also, are these concepts the same as the Japanese concept of "Mushin" or "no mind"?


Thanks
Christopher

[cjurakpt]

Krishnamurti uses the phrase "choiceless awareness" to describe this state of non-referenced action; it's also essentially what all the Ch'an koans are trying to bring about: they force the mind into a sort of "psychotic breakdown" (my teacher's phrase), where the faculties of cognition no longer can account for the perceived contradiction, and just stop working - at this very moment, one has the opportunity to break out of conditioned habit, and operate unhampered by the illusion of "psychological time" (another Krishnamurti-ism)

the CTS, not being mediated by the neurological system the way the muscles are, is free to act without the cognitive component slowing it down - rather, it's a much more direct feedback loop - the sheer mechanics of the way forces distribute through it allow for this; the best thing one can do, is get out of one's own way in a sense, and allow the forces to move unhindered, although there is something guiding them on some level as well, what one might consider as "pre-conditioned" thought, which is what you guys have been talking about; thus, operating in this way, one moves from stillness to contemplation: working out of the CTS, the "chatter" stops (stillness), and one is thereby able to perceive the ground of being (contemplation);

so, what does that taste like?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Hi Ronin: LOL, i'm all too familiar with the situation you described.. and, at one point in my life i would have reacted similarly.. more recently, as the offended driver sought revenge, i just smile an shoot him the Peace sign.. then, we fortuitously meet at a quickie food-mart.. he calls me an a-hole and i reply, "thanks for noticing", with a good natured smile.. for a moment this confuses him and i say, "sorry, i was distracted by my own issues, i hope your day goes better".. there was some mumbling and grumbling as we parted, but.. no violence..

Conversely, supposing he did get out with a weapon, what then? if it's a firearm, start begging for your life.. if it's a knife or bat, wait.. let him be the aggressor, hoping for witnesses.. then, don't get in your head planning a stragety.. his movements will dictate your response.. planned strageties seldom go as planned, then you are the confused victim..

Be well..

[imperialtaichi]

....started to visualize what I would do if he came out of the car with a bat or with a knife.... Also, are these concepts the same as the Japanese concept of "Mushin" or "no mind"?

Hello Christopher,

I would say, visualizing how you would react is a good thing.... but not immediately before a possible confrontation.

Why? during other times, if every now and again you think about how you would deal with different ways of defending yourself, over time you would have imagined many different scenarios and these scenarios would become part of your subconscious. For example, it is proven that consciously imagining shooting a basketball can improve your game even if you never have a basketball in your hand!

However, just before a confronting situation, if you imagine/visualize too much your mind becomes "locked" into certain patterns, and if the scenario turns out to be different to what you have visualized, you mind will not be free enough to deal with the situation. So, the best thing to do just before a fight is to clear your mind and just deal with the situation as it happens. The "Mushin" that you mentioned.

If you have seen the movie "The Last Samurai", there was one scene where Tom Cruise (he just never seems to get killed when everyone else dies??!?) was ambushed by a group of enemies. He took a breath, cleared his mind, defeated everyone THEN he thought back what he had done.... that's the idea of "Mushin".

Cheers,
John

[imperialtaichi]

more recently, as the offended driver sought revenge, i just smile an shoot him the Peace sign.. then, we fortuitously meet at a quickie food-mart.. he calls me an a-hole and i reply, "thanks for noticing", with a good natured smile.. for a moment this confuses him and i say, "sorry, i was distracted by my own issues, i hope your day goes better".. there was some mumbling and grumbling as we parted, but.. no violence..

Sorry, this is drifting off topic a bit, but just a quick note.

What TaiChiBob has described, is the irony of Martial Arts... The better a martial artist, the less likely he/she needs to use it.

Most fights occur when one or both parties have a point to prove, like "Don't call me an a-hole 'coz you are the a-hole"; or when someone had inconvenienced you, you retaliate because of an "underlying anger" being displace onto the person, without realizing that by retaliating you are inconveniencing yourself even further.

As one gets better with martial arts training, one no longer needs to prove a point because one becomes totally comfortable with, and complete awareness of, his/her own abilities. The mind is therefore "calm". Plus, from an efficiency point of view, the mind can freely choose the least inconvenient way of neutralising the confrontation with no emotional attachment which often leads to a peaceful resolution instead of fighting.

Good on you Bob

Cheers,
John

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Thanks, John.. <humble bows>..

Several months ago i was stopped at a light when the passenger in the car in front of me dropped a Wendy's (hamburger fast-food) bag full of trash out the window.. i put my vehicle in park and ran over and picked it and since the window was still open i handed to the passenger and said, "whew!! you dropped your bag, lucky i got it for you before the light changed".. the stunned look on the faces was priceless.. but, it was followed by a stream of profanity and threats.. then, with a look of shock, i asked "you mean you MEANT to throw your trash out here, do you think the world is YOUR trash can?" The light changed and i was following the car with no intent of further incident, then.. the passenger tossed the bag in such a manner that it landed just in front of my vehicle.. as disgusted as i was, i had no further intentions.. but, the universe had other ideas, in their need to show me who was in control they didn't see the FHP (Florida Highway Patrol) waiting to get into traffic right beside them.. blue lights and a none-too-happy Officer balanced the equation nicely..

I know too many Martial Artists that are just waiting for an opportunity to "show their stuff".. many of them will interpret innocent situations to fit their desire to show their hard earned training works.. but, i notice that they usually do this with folks that don't appear to be a real challenge.. it's funny how the biker at the other end of the Pub can get away with the same situation and these guys just let it slide.. Personally, i try to disguise my status, better to be a surprise to an opponent than forewarned..

Once many years ago a guy in a hot Corvette really cut me off badly at the toll booth.. i followed him to the quickie mart with my bright lights on, i jumped out of my truck running my mouth at full-throttle.. his door opened and 6 foot six of massive human got out and calmly said, "is there a problem?".. i said, "yep, i'm about to get my butt kicked for no good reason".. he laughed and said, "naw, i'm sorry, i really didn't see you back there.. we had a good laugh, a good chat and he bought me a cup of coffee.. Whew!! a lesson learned.. Pick your fights carefully!!

Unless there is clear and present danger there is no valid reason to engage violence.. i don't understand why people respond words with fists.. i had a guy tell me he was "gonna "F" me up".. i said. "that's a real possibility, but.. it might go the other way, you wanna just flip a coin?".. he shook his head, laughed and said "you're too weird".. again, no violence.. There's almost always an alternative.. when there isn't one, use just enough force to neutralize the situation.. Karma might, someday, repay you based on how you play the game.. as a last resort, though, if there's no other way.. be quick and decisive, once you determine it has to go down, do it with the authority of knowing you tried to do the appropriate thing..

Be well..

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Bob,

Wise words my friend!!

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings,

Thanks, Scott..

The self-righteousness that often accompanies a developed discipline is an expensive luxury.. the cost is integrity..

Be well...