Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Baqualin]

Thank you for understanding what I meant.

BQ stop.

FYI nothing. I have already stated I did SD West. I know the history, I know the debates, I know the misspellings, I know the politics. Not so much on the East but, much on the west.



Yes, I have seen the JRJ videos they are a source of debate in some circles regarding SD(again this is coming from the West).

If you read GT's post you would understand my post.



Our postures are similar to JRJ but it is rare to watch someone do SD stepping patterns. JRJ doesn't do the circle walking while doing the postures like SD. That is what I was responding to in GT's post.


It is interesting to find something, recently produced, outside of American influence, that resembles SD forms and patterns.

Got it and I agree...JRJ is just one of the ones with our form that I ran across in my Baqua research....I had conversation with him a few times and he seemed pretty ****y.
I also heard some of his students attended one of our sparing clinic's in Calif. and didn't fair to well

By the way, other than an occasional mention I stay out of the politic's, east or west, it turns my stomach

[Judge Pen]

I have a book of JRJ's pa Kua that discusses the postures, diagrams them, and lays them out just like SD does them. Including the walk in a tighter, more defined circle and repeating each palm change on the right and left side. Interesting.

[Baqualin]

I can't really speak for him but I don't think that his FYI and such was directed at you GKFu, but more a reply of what you said directed to the thread. He is a decent fellow or so I hear.


Hey BM2!!! coming to the "gathering" and seminar this weekend?

You are correct....I look at GKFu as a SD brother east or west.

[lunghushan]

I would say something about JAJ's bagua and his books, but it isn't fit for a forum.

Let's just say that given your form and stuff is exactly the same as his leads to a high probability that it was copied from a book.

[Judge Pen]

I would say something about JRJ's bagua and his books, but it isn't fit for a forum.

Let's just say that given your form and stuff is exactly the same as his leads to a high probability that it was copied from a book.

High probabability? Man you should have taken evidence with me; speculation without proof is a big no-no. We can sepculate about things until the cows come home (or Royal Dragon finds him a Russian bride).

[lunghushan]

High probabability? Man you should have taken evidence with me; speculation without proof is a big no-no. We can sepculate about things until the cows come home (or Royal Dragon finds him a Russian bride).

Well, this might get me in trouble, but Joseph Crandall (who is a very nice guy), translated a ton of Chinese books. He is a good friend of JAJ.

They have a book with a lot of different systems forms. I mentioned the book to a teacher from China and showed it to him, and he said that the versions of his systems forms are an exact copy of his teacher's book. The forms in the book were simplified for public consumption, and aren't the versions that anybody actually taught.

More I dare not say. Let's just say that now I really think my original hypothesis was correct.

[lunghushan]

The thing you have to understand about Chinese forms, especially baguazhang, is that masters change the forms.

They don't usually keep it the same. They sometimes forget things, or they sometimes add things in, or mix it up. Baguazhang supposedly has a big tradition of this. A lot of teachers will also 'mark' their form. Meaning they change some moves so they can tell who is teaching the form out to other people, if they see it.

So if your form is almost exactly the same as somebody else's form, or exactly the same, then it must mean you had the same teacher. Either that, or it must mean that they copied it out of a book of that teacher, or both people copied it out of a book. Or they corrected it with the version in the book.

So I'd say it's a very high probability if your form is the same as JAJ's form, that it was either learned from the same teacher, or copied out of a book. Given that this is supposed to come from Indonesia, the highest probability seems to be that it was copied out of a book.

This particular form we're talking about, though, is a very common form, so it's possible it wasn't copied.

[godzillakungfu]

By the way, other than an occasional mention I stay out of the politic's, east or west, it turns my stomach

Yeah, that is one of the reasons why I stopped teaching. Or according to rumors.....................

[godzillakungfu]

The thing you have to understand about Chinese forms, especially baguazhang, is that masters change the forms.

They don't usually keep it the same. They sometimes forget things, or they sometimes add things in, or mix it up. Baguazhang supposedly has a big tradition of this. A lot of teachers will also 'mark' their form. Meaning they change some moves so they can tell who is teaching the form out to other people, if they see it.

So if your form is almost exactly the same as somebody else's form, or exactly the same, then it must mean you had the same teacher. Either that, or it must mean that they copied it out of a book of that teacher, or both people copied it out of a book. Or they corrected it with the version in the book.

So I'd say it's a very high probability if your form is the same as JAJ's form, that it was either learned from the same teacher, or copied out of a book. Given that this is supposed to come from Indonesia, the highest probability seems to be that it was copied out of a book.

Did you purposely miss what GT and I said?

Read what JP said again. JAJ and many other books say the same thing so the tighter circles, the palm changes are universal. Now, I'm not saying we do it right or wrong.

If the forms look exactly the same, which no one said, it is copied from someone else.

If it is completely different it is fake.

[Baqualin]

Well, this might get me in trouble, but Joseph Crandall (who is a very nice guy), translated a ton of Chinese books. He is a good friend of JAJ.

They have a book with a lot of different systems forms. I mentioned the book to a teacher from China and showed it to him, and he said that the versions of his systems forms are an exact copy of his teacher's book. The forms in the book were simplified for public consumption, and aren't the versions that anybody actually taught.

More I dare not say. Let's just say that now I really think my original hypothesis was correct.

OK your jumping to conclusions....GSM taught out the ONE Baqua form we're discussing way before JAJ book was published....IT IS A COMMON Baqua form...your teacher learn it from a Teacher and the Teacher who's book you mention learned it from a Teacher....it is not his form it's Chiang Jung-Ch'iao's form.

I also stated what we have is much more complete.

Joseph Crandall is a nice guy and their book is only to show the history and diversity of Pa Kua and it's weapons...... not to teach the forms.

Their book only has one of our Baqua forms.....Do you realize how many Baqua forms are out there.

Your also dealing with a country with such a diverse dialect that half the country can't even communicate with each other.

The Chinese girl friend I had, new a lot about Tai Chi and Meditation.....but had no idea what Baqua and Hsing I were until she meet me.

[lunghushan]

Did you purposely miss what GT and I said?

Read what JP said again. JAJ and many other books say the same thing so the tighter circles, the palm changes are universal. Now, I'm not saying we do it right or wrong.

If the forms look exactly the same, which no one said, it is copied from someone else.

If it is completely different it is fake.

Well it just seems interesting that all your stuff is standard is all. Meaning it is all standard forms easily found in history or in book.

Except maybe the 'golden leopard' or whatever. I don't know about that. I'm not Chinese, but from what little Chinese sources I do have access to, there are evidently a TON of Chinese resources I don't have access to.

If you had something like Bak Mei forms or some closed door system forms, it would actually lend some credence to your claims.

Or if your stuff was more fragmented like the Kun Tao from De Thouars, it would make a lot more sense.

But since all your stuff appears to be standard, and the same as published works, and you even have CMC's form which was designed by him in Taiwan, it really detracts from your story.

Bottom line is, I don't believe your story. Not that it matters, really.

[Judge Pen]

So I'd say it's a very high probability if your form is the same as JAJ's form, that it was either learned from the same teacher, or copied out of a book. Given that this is supposed to come from Indonesia, the highest probability seems to be that it was copied out of a book.

This particular form we're talking about, though, is a very common form, so it's possible it wasn't copied.

It is a very common form. It is just as probable that one of the collegues in Indonesia (maybe even GM Ie) learned the form prior to Indonesia and then taught it based upon his understanding. If it's that common, then why couldn't that be so?

Again, two theories that are possible, but no real proof to support either one.

[godzillakungfu]

Well it just seems interesting that all your stuff is standard is all. Meaning it is all standard forms easily found in history or in book.

Except maybe the 'golden leopard' or whatever. I don't know about that. I'm not Chinese, but from what little Chinese sources I do have access to, there are evidently a TON of Chinese resources I don't have access to.

If you had something like Bak Mei forms or some closed door system forms, it would actually lend some credence to your claims.

Or if your stuff was more fragmented like the Kun Tao from De Thouars, it would make a lot more sense.

But since all your stuff appears to be standard, and the same as published works, and you even have CMC's form which was designed by him in Taiwan, it really detracts from your story.

Bottom line is, I don't believe your story. Not that it matters, really.

Please tell me what is standard.

The biggest arguments I have seen in this thread, from the beginning, is the lack of verifiable forms.

So far there are only 5 or 6 things from books.

Now you are saying 5 out of the 900+ forms make the whole thing standard.

Strange use of logic.

Now, don't get me started on the 900+ forms.

Oh, it isn't my story anymore. I'm attacking the arguments not your stance.

[lunghushan]

It is a very common form. It is just as probable that one of the collegues in Indonesia (maybe even GM Ie) learned the form prior to Indonesia and then taught it based upon his understanding. If it's that common, then why couldn't that be so?

Again, two theories that are possible, but no real proof to support either one.

Yeah, maybe I spent too long in Manhattan. Going into this conversation I was assuming that you had non-standard forms. I didn't really think about the book connection much.

When you showed the Kwan Do form, it looked like a valid form, but the way it was done wasn't exactly right with the stepping. At that point it seemed more likely that it was learned out of a book, because the way they have forms books layed out, some details are lost. Unicorn step could have been one of those details.

Then, to find out that the rest of the stuff is standard, the same as easily accessed published materials, it lends even more credence to the book claim.

Then, to find out that he teaches CMC's Taiwan form, that just screams out for a book or Taiwan connection.

But yeah, I can't prove that Sin The's master didn't go to Taiwan and China and learn all those forms, somehow the same standard versions that are most famous. I can't prove it at all.

But it really strains the credibility.

[lunghushan]

Please tell me what is standard.

The biggest arguments I have seen in this thread, from the beginning, is the lack of verifiable forms.

So far there are only 5 or 6 things from books.

Now you are saying 5 out of the 900+ forms make the whole thing standard.

Strange use of logic.

Now, don't get me started on the 900+ forms.

Oh, it isn't my story anymore. I'm attacking the arguments not your stance.

That's fine. But on the other thread they listed a bunch of forms, and they all seem standard. I have a number of translated books of forms and materials that I bought on Ryukyu that were translated from Chinese books, and some from other sources.

There are also a lot of books published by Lion's books in Taiwan in Chinese that are mostly reprints of old, classical works, along with some new books by He Jing Han, for example.

This evidently is a very small amount of the number of materials that are available in Chinese bookstores in Chinatowns across the world, and have been historically, since the Republican period, around 1920 or so.

Standard meaning standard names, verifiable names. Without actually seeing your forms, I wouldn't know. I don't even know all those forms anyway. But the fact that BQ verified that the SD versions are the same as those Youtube versions points to that.