Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[The Willow Sword]

i dont think so. the green belt lo han chien form that is taught is yet another "revised" form. They claim that Lohan is the gateway to praying mantis yet most praying mantis i have seen and done does not have that classical lohan posturing. lo han seems to have the classical shaolin stances whereas the praying mantis forms have all that monkey foot work. the closest that i have come to doing a mantis form outside of sd that has a lo han flavor is the Bung Bo form from seven star. but everyone seems to do that form all fast and flighty,from what i have seen. plus all the stomping in bung bo. anyway i am a tad off point here. so i will conclude with a "im not sure about the SD lohan chien form and its origins". maybe its another one of these "secret forms learned on a secret trip to indonesia"

hehe keepin it goin' TWS

[Learn]

Learn - "I would disagree about the "Indochineese approach" as has been suggested."

I've read online discussions of kuntao practicioners saying that the principles are far more important than the specifics in kuntao...GM Sin passes on the principles, usually via the forms and the specifics (phoenix eye vs. willow palm) are secondary. We may actually be agreeing here, though you may be stating that the principles aren't being passed along properly.

Here's a bit from a website describing Willem deThouars "style" of teaching. I'll underline the parts I find similar to SD.

"This extensive period of travel, and Willem's insatiable curiosity, define the learning ethic of the Kun Lun Pai. Pai practitioners are encouraged to examine every aspect of the martial arts, and indeed life in general, to find what works for them. This takes the Bruce Lee philosophy of "absorb what is useful" to the next evolutionary step. The last half of that statement was to "discard the rest." In Willem's approach, nothing is thrown away. Since every individual is different and each situation or opponent is different, no hard and fast absolute laws will apply. What's more, a practitioner's path in the martial arts does not resist the passage of time. A technique that seemed to not work ten years ago, might suddenly find itself useful after it ages in the mind."
"Willem is fond of the word "struggle." In class, he will demonstrate a technique or form, hand it over to the students and say, "O.K., now struggle with it." This is classical old-style teaching. He doesn't give too much mechanical information, because the best teacher is the self. And Willem believes that life is a struggle."
"There has been discussion in the martial arts print media as to whether Kun Tao is an Indonesian, Malaysian, Philippino or Chinese art; the answer is "yes." Kun Tao goes back to ancient China, so it is accurately a Chinese art, but both Chinese and indigenous people in Southeast Asia have practiced and adopted it as their own. And the old men who were trained in what they see as the "pure art" have seen it sanitized and changed; it literally doesn't exist in its original state in China anymore."
__________________
Keep it simple, stupid.


You are absolutely correct. However, SD propogates forms and not princiiples. You could do both, but that is not what is happening. The philipino arts teach energy interactive drills. The Chinese arts can do the same. SD doesn't . It is unfortunate, because the Chinese arts have so much to offer, but it is hard to match the realism that modern world kali has to offer.

[Citong Shifu]

i dont think so. the green belt lo han chien form that is taught is yet another "revised" form. They claim that Lohan is the gateway to praying mantis yet most praying mantis i have seen and done does not have that classical lohan posturing. lo han seems to have the classical shaolin stances whereas the praying mantis forms have all that monkey foot work. the closest that i have come to doing a mantis form outside of sd that has a lo han flavor is the Bung Bo form from seven star. but everyone seems to do that form all fast and flighty,from what i have seen. plus all the stomping in bung bo. anyway i am a tad off point here. so i will conclude with a "im not sure about the SD lohan chien form and its origins". maybe its another one of these "secret forms learned on a secret trip to indonesia"

hehe keepin it goin' TWS

WS, Sorry, I may have confused you... I was asking if the 108 tan tui tao lu from SD was actually the 12 or 14 road tan tui sets normally associated with other schools... Ok, later...

[Learn]

Perhaps it boils down to this. A guy has a knife, you have a sort stick, are you comfortable fighting him off? Or, broadsword to broadsword?

[Citong Shifu]

Perhaps it boils down to this. A guy has a knife, you have a sort stick, are you comfortable fighting him off? Or, broadsword to broadsword?

knife to knife is always better, but if all one has is a stick then you do what you have to do...In my opinion...

[kungfujunky]

Perhaps it boils down to this. A guy has a knife, you have a sort stick, are you comfortable fighting him off? Or, broadsword to broadsword?

yes to both

[Golden Tiger]

and what am i denying? exactly? by pointing out the commonality of that particular lo han movement? so what am i denying? oh am i denying that this is actually something that shaolin do came up with and that everyone copies them? am i denying that sd is the true and most amazing comprehensive art in the universe? uhh no. just pointing out that its a common technique, so common in fact that ANYONE even a misrepresentation of shaolin lineage can aqquire.

how about YOUR side of that river GT?

TWS

I think kungfujunky answered it best. The odds that the exact set of moves from not one but 2 of the forms we do being done together is pretty low. What does that prove? Nothing, well, other than the fact that his teacher bought the same book back in the 70's and pieced them together the exact same way Master Sin did or that someone saw the forms, found a bit of merit in them, and "borrowed" them.

But to say that "oh, those are very common moves"...now now.

As for my side of "de Nile" (I thought that was very clever by the way), its just lovely on this side. I am not worried about all the things you all question anyway. Said it before, will say it again, try and keep up this time...the origins, lineage, etc. don't matter to me. If I had started training in one of the other schools that is always slammed, and I felt that I learned what I wanted to learn from it, I would be just as content.

Ok, I have to get ready to go our Fall Tournament and Demo. Maybe I'll see some of you there.

[ricardocameron]

Perhaps it boils down to this. A guy has a knife, you have a sort stick, are you comfortable fighting him off? Or, broadsword to broadsword?

Throw the stick at him and RUN!!!!

[ricardocameron]

From kungfumagazine.com's ezine.......

Talking with Ronny Yu, the director of FEARLESS---with Jet Li

"......It's not just a form. It's body, mind and spirit. And that is the theme of FEARLESS. It's really about Chinese martial arts - the truth behind it. It's not just how good a fighter you are. The character in Chinese – wu – if split it up, actually it's called "avert conflict." The better master you are, the better peacemaker you are because you can stop people from hurting each other. You can avert conflict because you are so good. So that is the whole theme that we're looking for."


just sharing.

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[Royal Dragon]

knife to knife is always better, but if all one has is a stick then you do what you have to do...In my opinion...

Reply]
The stick will undoubtedly have a longer reach, so you can still attack, but be out of range for your opponets blade.....If you can bash your opponent in the skull, and he is not even close enough to you to cut with his blade, which is better?

I will take the stick. You can have your knife any day.

[Flaca]

Ask KC, he's the teacher who called short katas 'Lohan'.

What do you mean?

Not on this thread, in classes. KC is probably in Lexington this weekend.

[Radhnoti]

Citong Shifu - "WS, Sorry, I may have confused you... I was asking if the 108 tan tui tao lu from SD was actually the 12 or 14 road tan tui sets normally associated with other schools... Ok, later..."

CS, shaolin-do's 30 short forms are a condensed version of something called "108 Steps of the Lohan". As far as anyone I've talked to (and I've talked to senior masters) has known, they were never called tan tui until schools attempting to fit a bit more of a "kung-fu mold" started classifying them as such. They are very similar to tan tui NOW, though I was told the full sized 108 Step forms were a lot less linear.
Again, I'm not even sure I'd charge the SD schools that call them "tan tui" with intellectual dishonesty...as they are performed (to my understanding) just like tan tui and serve much the same purpose. GT or one of those who might have been around for the original attempts to teach the 108 Steps might be able to comment on whether the "summarizing" into 30 short forms changed the "flavor" of the forms a great deal. The senior master I spoke to (well...heard speaking ) seemed to think they were greatly changed.

[Citong Shifu]

Citong Shifu - "WS, Sorry, I may have confused you... I was asking if the 108 tan tui tao lu from SD was actually the 12 or 14 road tan tui sets normally associated with other schools... Ok, later..."

CS, shaolin-do's 30 short forms are a condensed version of something called "108 Steps of the Lohan". As far as anyone I've talked to (and I've talked to senior masters) has known, they were never called tan tui until schools attempting to fit a bit more of a "kung-fu mold" started classifying them as such. They are very similar to tan tui NOW, though I was told the full sized 108 Step forms were a lot less linear.
Again, I'm not even sure I'd charge the SD schools that call them "tan tui" with intellectual dishonesty...as they are performed (to my understanding) just like tan tui and serve much the same purpose. GT or one of those who might have been around for the original attempts to teach the 108 Steps might be able to comment on whether the "summarizing" into 30 short forms changed the "flavor" of the forms a great deal. The senior master I spoke to (well...heard speaking ) seemed to think they were greatly changed.

Thanks! Thats cool. I was just wondering.

[Golden Tiger]

Congrats to Bent Monk on placing at the tournament. Also, it was good to see some of you from here on Sat and Sun, like 9th, lx, Bagulin, and BM2. Hope everyone had a nice time.

[kungfujunky]

did you test gt?

man it sounds like you all had a good time!