Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Royal Dragon]

You are a Joke man all I meant to say was I was not impressed by the practitoner or the form presented SD Bung Bo is much more "interesting and looks even more " Mantisy". That one was OK though for a beginner. KC

Reply]
You were not impressed, because you are undeucated and don't know what to look for, because SD is a big Lie.

[Flying-Monkey]

This does not answer the questions completely...

..you still have yet to answer why it is not Shaolin , kung fu, or traditional .

The word tradition comes from the latin word traditio meaning to "pass down" or "to hand over".

...this is the way that the art has been passed down or handed over from master to student for at least three generations in Shaolin Do

...it is traditional .....however not the tradition that you are familiar with..

All this bullsh*t about the superficial aspects is rediculous and has nothing to do with whether it is shaolin or kung fu

you obviously do not know what shaolin or kung fu is

you are in Japan and you are not Chinese ...are you sure you are not teaching karate???

It has a tradition, but the tradition is not Shaolin's tradition. SD men do not do keep with REAL shaolin when it comes to forms and technique.

How a person does techniques is not superficial. The Philosophy is only half of the equation.

It is not shaolin because the SD forms that I have seem, are not perform in the way that is generally done in kung fu. I such lack of understanding in some cases that it made me cringe. It isn't a difference in flavor, it is just poorly done.

Do you really think I know nothing about Kung fu? My Sigung agrees with me. He has over 60 years of experience in kung fu. My sifu has close to 30 years of experience and his agrees. I spoke to other sifu with a lot of experience and they agree.

Now, only Chinese know about Shaolin and kung fu? Is your GM Korean and he learned in Indonesia?

I teach karate? Are you saying that TSPK is karate? You asked a question, but I understand the semantics of it. Be careful! This is a friendly warning. Show a video to any master of your GM and my sigung doing forms and techniques and see which they think REAL kung fu.

On you GM website, it has shaolin karate

If forms and techniques are not a big part of what a style is, then what is?

[Flaca]

You are a Joke man all I meant to say was I was not impressed by the practitoner or the form presented SD Bung Bo is much more "interesting and looks even more " Mantisy". That one was OK though for a beginner. KC

Reply]
You were not impressed, because you are undeucated and don't know what to look for, because SD is a big Lie.

I thought the video affirmed SD's mantis. It looked very similar to a mantis form I learned a couple years ago.
Speaking of 'undeucated'.... thanks for the irony.

[Royal Dragon]

Very similar, and correct are two different things though.

Like I have been saying, to the uneducated, a Cubic Zerconia "Looks" very similar to a real Diamond, but it's much cheaper for a reason, that being that it's not a real Diamond....SD is the same thing as the Cubic Zerconia.

[BentMonk]

RD - I appreciate the passion of your posts, the SD folks are just as passionate. There's no need to mock that. We all believe that what we're studying is the best or we wouldn't study there. I am curious to know why you consider yourself a "professional jeweler". I mean no disrespect. You post with such an authoritative tone to your posts. Do you consider yourself to be a TCMA master?

TTM - I know you're passionate about your POV, but you're no helping the greater good by tossing around insults. That just lends credibility to the other side of the argument.

The Xia - I feel where you're coming from, but it would inspire a lot more open dialogue, and less BS if you'd be willing to share your background. It may not be directly relevant to the topic at hand, but would go a long way toward establishing rather or not you even have the required knowledge to debate TCMA at all, or are just a well spoken troll.

TWS - I am sorry that you had such a negative experience with SD. However, this whole thing with you, Master Joe, and KC is bewildering. To say that anyone or anything other than yourself is responsible for you losing that challenge is not only wrong, it's a cop out. You got yourself into that mess, why should anyone other than you have gotten you out of it? So you got your butt kicked, train harder, quit playing the blame game, and move on. No master is obligated to put their reputation, and school on the line because one of their students decides to fight a challenge match. What makes you so special that Master Joe should risk not only his reputation and his school, but face the legal ramifications of a challenge as well? Your confidence should not be dependent upon the support of someone else. As to this Q & A with GM Sin, I would like to see Gene or some other neutral party handle that. That's the only way for it to be objective and without bias from either side of this debate.

This thread as a whole is an immortal horse that has been beaten beyond recognition. This debate will never be settled to the satisfaction of either side. Those of us that post on it do so out of a love for debate and not much else. I respect anyone who studies any art with devotion and effort, and expect the same in return. I do not presume to know more than someone else about Ma, and do not bash other styles. I expect the same in return. We would all benefit if we could quit bashing and insulting each other, and start learning from each other. I'm not holding my breath waiting for that to happen though. SD has been good to me and many others. At the end of my day that's all I need. This debate is just a pleasant diversion that IMO many take far too seriously. Peace, Love, and Happy Training to ALL.

[Flaca]

Very similar, and correct are two different things though.

Like I have been saying, to the uneducated, a Cubic Zerconia "Looks" very similar to a real Diamond, but it's much cheaper for a reason, that being that it's not a real Diamond....SD is the same thing as the Cubic Zerconia.

They are indeed two different things, and I am not enough of an expert to say 'correct'. I can only say similar.
Speaking of uneducated, are you sufficiently 'educated' about SD to pass such harsh judgment? I doubt it.
I'm with Bentmonk. He epitomizes the SD spirit, better than me. I'm spiteful and mean...

[Royal Dragon]

No, I am not a Master, but I have been around Shaolin Kung Fu in one form or another for a good 16-17 years now. I have never seen anything from SD that looks remotely like Shaolin Chuan.

It is ot the "Original" Shaolin as claimed...infact it is not even Shaolin. You can see easily by looking at the various forms that pop up on the net from time to time.

Also, I am not a Jewler, but *Like* a jewler knows the difference between a Cubic Zerconia and a Diamond, I know Shaolin when I see it, and when I don't. SD is not Shaolin.

Now, I ma a bit curious to the comment that the Bung Bo vid I posted reminds someone of an SD form. I would love to see that form just so I can tell if it really is some version of Bung Bo or not, and how close it is to being corretc if it is. Is it just the choreography? or are the principals there too?

The Vid I posted is pretty much as close as you are going to get to being authentically correct. It can be used as a benchmark to gauge the performance, and authenticity of the SD set....if something similar actually exists in SD.

Even if it does though, the Mantis set I saw before is some sort of Kata that has been hacked to bits with a mantis hand posture added for good looks...it's NOT mantis in the least little bit....it's not even Karate anymore, but that is what it is closest too at this point.

SD *May* have a grain of truth in it here and there, It's just no one has ever seen it as of yet. Bung Bo is an easy set to get, there are books, videos, and even clips on the net of it. But to get it right, requires a Mantis teacher, with an authentic background. From what I have seen of SD, nothing there is done properly, so it is still just a Cubic Zerconia compared to the Diamond it is passing it self off as.

[Judge Pen]

Now, I ma a bit curious to the comment that the Bung Bo vid I posted reminds someone of an SD form. I would love to see that form just so I can tell if it really is some version of Bung Bo or not, and how close it is to being corretc if it is. Is it just the choreography? or are the principals there too?

I'm sure there could be a legitimate debate between different mantis schools whether or not a particular performance of Bung Bo is legitimate when compared to theirs, but I would wager that SD's version is closer than many here would suspect or even admit (if they saw it). I don't know a lot of SD's mantis. I did take a seminar with Three Harmonies for white ape steals the peach a couple of years ago and then I learned that SD taught a version of that form too. I compared them and thought they were very similar. Especially considering that I had seen 4 or 5 different versions of this same form in other mantis schools' websites.

[Radhnoti]

RD - "Agian, you guys come on a forum FULL of Shaolin and Chinese Kung Fu experts..."

I'd point out that most of these threads about SD HAVEN'T been started by SD students. You're blaming students for defending their preferred system RD. It's been a LONG time since any SD students came to this site bragging about SD's history and so forth...and in almost every instance those folks have been new students.

Green Cloud said something on another SD thread that I agree with:
"From a traditionalist point of view, Shaolin Do is not a traditional Kung Fu system.
Can you call Shaolin Do a CMA system sure."

I don't think any SDer is saying "my martial art that is called shaolin-do is just like all the other "traditional" chinese shaolin arts out there". Everyone knows SD is it's own thing. Again, I partially agree with GC, "It is my professional opinion that Shaolin Do is not a traditional Kung Fu system. After checking out some videos it loosely resembles Indonesian type of MA mixed in with Karate and Jiu jitsu." (I'm not sure I'd include Jiu jitsu...unless he saw footage of some of the self defense stuff, usually attributed to "chin na" on SD stuff I've seen.)

GC has said, in effect, that Shaolin-do originated in China then went to Indonesia and is different than most of what is practiced as "kung-fu" now. I honestly don't think any SDer is arguing those facts.

[Judge Pen]

BM, I saw you performance at the demonstration! You always impress me man! Keep it up.

[The Willow Sword]

TWS - I am sorry that you had such a negative experience with SD. However, this whole thing with you, Master Joe, and KC is bewildering. To say that anyone or anything other than yourself is responsible for you losing that challenge is not only wrong, it's a cop out. You got yourself into that mess, why should anyone other than you have gotten you out of it? So you got your butt kicked, train harder, quit playing the blame game, and move on. No master is obligated to put their reputation, and school on the line because one of their students decides to fight a challenge match. What makes you so special that Master Joe should risk not only his reputation and his school, but face the legal ramifications of a challenge as well? Your confidence should not be dependent upon the support of someone else.

Bent monk i am going to repost what i stated earlier so you can get your reading comprehension skills working again. here it is

my "ATTITUDE" at the time reflected one of standing up for something that so many had put down. I dont blame joe or the school for losing that challenge match with reemul, but my heart wasnt in that fight because of the rug being pulled out from under me by those i trusted and followed(but i still maintain today that if i had support and everything went like it was going to i still would have lost, reemul just had more skill than i). you all seem to think that i blame the heart of the school for me losing. so what if i lost, and i did lose, but you know i gained a ton of respect from people at eastwind including reemul and from many here on this forum for having the courage to go to that challenge alone. i could have backed out when i was told i wouldnt be supported in the match, i could have wimped out and made a fool of myself and be thought of as a coward. but i didnt

now would you people please stop inferring the exact opposite of what i have been stating? clear the crud from your eyes drink some coffee or take some ginko biloba and get the reading fundamentals back to the forefront of your brains.
im very TIRED of having to repeat and reiderate myself for those who dont know how to read and comprehend a fuking statement that i make.

TWS

[Royal Dragon]

RD - "Agian, you guys come on a forum FULL of Shaolin and Chinese Kung Fu experts..."

I'd point out that most of these threads about SD HAVEN'T been started by SD students. You're blaming students for defending their preferred system RD. It's been a LONG time since any SD students came to this site bragging about SD's history and so forth...and in almost every instance those folks have been new students.

Reply]
Hmm, Ok, I stand corrected.

Why do newbies come here and brag about SD's history? Maybe it should not be taught if it's clearly not true?



It is my professional opinion that Shaolin Do is not a traditional Kung Fu system. After checking out some videos it loosely resembles Indonesian type of MA mixed in with Karate and Jiu jitsu."

Reply]
My experiance with Indo systems is minor, however I have seen enough to say the above comment may very well be correct. It is also the opinion of someone I do respect and has the experiance to judge.

[BentMonk]

BM, I saw you performance at the demonstration! You always impress me man! Keep it up.

Thanks. I'm always happy if I don't fall on my a$$. I got DQ'd for head contact in sparring. Oops.

[Royal Dragon]

Not karate, the Indo stuff.

[BentMonk]

Bent monk i am going to repost what i stated earlier so you can get your reading comprehension skills working again. here it is

my "ATTITUDE" at the time reflected one of standing up for something that so many had put down. I dont blame joe or the school for losing that challenge match with reemul, but my heart wasnt in that fight because of the rug being pulled out from under me by those i trusted and followed(but i still maintain today that if i had support and everything went like it was going to i still would have lost, reemul just had more skill than i). you all seem to think that i blame the heart of the school for me losing. so what if i lost, and i did lose, but you know i gained a ton of respect from people at eastwind including reemul and from many here on this forum for having the courage to go to that challenge alone. i could have backed out when i was told i wouldnt be supported in the match, i could have wimped out and made a fool of myself and be thought of as a coward. but i didnt

now would you people please stop inferring the exact opposite of what i have been stating? clear the crud from your eyes drink some coffee or take some ginko biloba and get the reading fundamentals back to the forefront of your brains.
im very TIRED of having to repeat and reiderate myself for those who dont know how to read and comprehend a fuking statement that i make.

TWS

You're whole demeanor does nothing but validate my comments. If it was your attitude at the time, and not the way you feel now, why continue to bring it up? Regardless of what you're tired of, why respond with such voracity and profanity? Did I strike a nerve or what? I'm happy you gained respect, learned a lesson, or whatever, but your attitude as a whole still suggests that you haven't gotten over your feelings of betrayal, however unfounded they may be. There is nothing wrong with my comprehension skills. I am simply stating my perspective based on what you've written. You're entitled to disagree with me, but the insults, smarta$$ attitude, and profanity were uncalled for. You display this type of hostility and immaturity, and wonder why someone would be reluctant to help you meet with GM Sin?