Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Baqualin]

Baqualin,

I'll work on that request and its a reasonable one. But my point was to present my argument and then to consider yours. Pretend you can convince me of your position. Don't just argue against me, argue for your guy.

I was making a point that this is a brother thing and they settled it....and your trying to open it back up

[kwaichang]

I have cut and pasted as you did I will get a quote I also am printing a copy for my Linguistics professor to translate.
Quick question did they translate it in modern or Traditional Chinese ? KC

[Lorenzo Valla]

Their project manager stated that the text was in "older style Chinese" and in fact it cost a little more. Plus the legibility of the copy was such that the linguist had to work longer to get it done.

[Radhnoti]

LV - "His published training dates do not correspond with his certificate."

It was mentioned as a possibility that GM Sin trained informally prior to being accepted into the school. If GM Ie was his grandfather that makes even more sense.

I think Hiang is using the Indonesian club name. I've spoken to Senior Masters who indicate they were there when shaolin-do was picked as an official name. This does contradict what was said in GM Sin's book...that Shaolin-do was used in Indonesia. Had that been so it's fairly certain the shaolin-do name would have been used earlier on. It is possible that shaolin-do was always the name GM Sin intended to use for HIS club...and the karate club stuff was eliminated with the intent of unity/clarity. Either way that does seem to be a misstatement.

As GT said, the translated letter I offered up was posted online by a student of GM Hiang. I have no idea who has the letter now, I only know that it offered up obscure facts that have been shown to be correct. In my opinion, that, plus the lack of any clear "victor" should the letter show itself to be true, makes it's likelihood of veracity much greater.

I also think that Sin earned 5th and (later) Hiang earned 7th...Hiang passing Sin in "original school rank" occured after Sin moved to the U.S. A student of Hiang offered up a letter from Ie saying Sin was GM, Hiang PARTICIPATED in large portions of SD history in which Sin was acknowledged as "GM"...and GM Sin says he was passed down the title. Do you see how someone from Hiang's group saying something different NOW seems disingenuous?

So, I agree with much of what you say, but most of it isn't disputed by SDers as far as I can tell.

Also, I think there's confusion about the translation. We began talking about the letter and GT seemed to indicate that Hiang had it...also I knew I had gotten it online from a Hiang student. Somewhere along the line your translation of the certificate (which no one questions beyond "minored") got confused with a translation of the letter. So, I think everyone agrees with your translation but no one thinks it's a big deal. Your point, if I understand you, is that the certificate GM Sin is displaying is 5th level black...but if he was honorarily raised to 10th or the grading system was changed to reflect the state of U.S. competition that point is moot as well.

A caveat. Almost nothing I produce is first hand like GT, baqualine, and a few others...I trained to blackbelt from 2000-2004ish. I'm all web-fu when it comes to shaolin-do these days, I'm actually starting to train with Western and Japanese based styles now.

Happy birthday baqualine.

[Flaca]

Hold on to the A. The formula is going to get scarce.

Noooooo.... what'll we do???? Why will it get scarce? What (else) have I missed?

With any luck 'C' will get scarce. Eeeeeuuuuwwww. I had a chew of that tonight and I'm still getting it out of my teeth.

[Judge Pen]

I'm sorry you feel the way you do about this situation. Do you have anything to support your claim. The claim that SD posters to this forum have made repeatedly for over two years? That's all we're talking about.

There's no point in my posting anything from any translation service, because you guys will just say its wrong, inaccurate, etc. That's why I've suggested you get your own done.

I think its always interesting to see the SD posters attitude about Hiang. At the bottom of your post you say, "no one has taken a pot shot at Hiang The as far as I can remember." At the top of the post you accuse him of stealing Sin's personal letter.

Similar comments abound through the thread. He got kicked out of the club. He's afraid to go back to Indonesia. He stays quiet because he's so ashamed. He's so desperate that he calls Master Ie his grandfather. "Oh but we respect him so"

I didn't accuse him of getting kicked out of Indonesia either. Is that true?
I don't think anyone would call that or what that as respect.

You have an interesting sense of "accuasation." If you read my post, I asked you to confirm or deny whether or not the letter has been taken. I don't know. I've never seen the letter. I think GT alluded that the original certificate and letter were in your camp's possession and I was asking you to confirm or deny it. Ease up man. I'm not accusing anyone of anything.

[Golden Tiger]

Good morning everyone. So, where are we now?

It does seem that we have gotten our thoughts crossed a little concerning translations and such. As the hon. JP stated, no one is disputing the certificate translation. In fact, I am having it translated as I type this and will post a pic of the certificate and the translation (at great person expense mind you but you all are worth it ).

As to the other document in question, the "letter". Before I got on here, I had never even heard of the letter. It was entered into the conversation by "Ground Dragon " I think, a student of M. Hiang's side of this mess. He stated that it proved that Master Sin and Hiang were the grandsons of M. Ie. It also stated that Master Sin was given the red belt by Master Ie, the head of the school where both of them trained. I have never seen it, don't know if it was dreamed up during an acid induced trip, or how and by who it was translated. But it was introduced, by a student of M. Hiang, so I could only conclude that it was in their pocession. Reasonable enough assumption.

As for Master Sin certificate that is in question, as far as I know, only a copy exists in the hands of the SD side. It is part of a picture showing the ranking used in SD. The actuall one, I have never seen. Except for a copy that was emailed to me by a student of M. Hiangs. I have heard references to it in SD but since we will not allow heresay, I will not mention that. But I do know we do not have it. I do wonder why.

Since certificates are of great interest, I took the chance to look at the current and older ones that M. Hiang is providing during rank advancement. Having gotten them translated, neither one states anything about "Chung Yen Shaolin Martial Arts". The characters read "Shaolin Karate Kung Fu Certificate". (Photo with translation will be provided below). Perhaps you should ask him to change them so that 50 years from now, there will be no confusion when this debate pops up again.

Now, what else can we discuss?

[Baqualin]

Noooooo.... what'll we do???? Why will it get scarce? What (else) have I missed?

With any luck 'C' will get scarce. Eeeeeuuuuwwww. I had a chew of that tonight and I'm still getting it out of my teeth.

Your not suppose to chew it.....swallow it with water...real quick

[kungfujunky]

hey bq check your email

[Golden Tiger]

I will have to scan the translation in but for those of you that have it, reading from right to left, it is as follows( by line):

1. Graduation Certificate

2. Mr Zhen Sin Kwang Fujian Province/county
3. 20 years old /finished the courses required
4. 10 years old when began 3 parts of study
5. 1954-55 primary study 1st level black
6. 1956-58 2nd level /junior 3rd level black
7. 1959-63 Advanced level/5th black
8. Passed exams and graduated
9. Learned golden snake
10. cyclone/hurricane leg
11. Iron finger
12. 3 styles only passed down in only to school students very outstanding
13. Competed in competitions held by Cheng Yen Shaolin School
14. was champion
15. Giving the highest honor in this school* (hmmm, might be refering to competition, might not...couldnt tell)
16. Cheng Yen Shaolin Kung Fu school
17. Iron Palm Creator/head Yu Chang Ming
18. year, 1964 Jan 15th


There you go. I will try to get it scanned sometime today or soon. Some of the words might be off because there were "kung fu" words and she was not sure.


Now I have to buy an extra buffet dinner....

[kungfujunky]

based off of that this pic makes it more plausible that he was at least 8th or 9th degree at the time (i dont think he was 10th yet as gm ie hadnt written the letter at that time)

http://www.sinthe.com/images/2004/rankingsystem.jpg

interesting

[Radhnoti]

James D. Hall was the posting name of the Hiang student who put out the first copy I saw of the letter. Seems like he worked as a nurse at a hospital in Pikeville, KY and his teacher called his club "Shaolin Kuoshu". It's likely GD (if he posted it) got his copy of the letter from me.

It's all online, google groups stuff...

[Flaca]

http://www.sinthe.com/images/2004/GMandweapons.jpg

I didn't look at this one before. In the painting, M Sin has the red belt, M Hiang has black belt still. Presumably M Hiang agreed to the use of his image... Not conclusive, but still interesting.

[Radhnoti]

Well...that certificate verifies the school wasn't at that time called shaolin-do, at least not internally.

Speaking of the rankings...it cracks me up that 8-10th is called "elderly" master. I knew a senior master that was supposed to kid EM Leonard with "elderly" master. I really thought it was supposed to be "elder" master. I also heard that he walked up to EM Leonard just after he got promoted and said, "Hey! Where do I get me one o' them candy cane colored belts!"

[Lorenzo Valla]

To all: I'm still looking for you to support [U]your[U] claims that Sin is the head of the Shaolin system. The SD supporters keep trying to introduce red herrings into the discussion. You've made a claim repeatedly in this forum.....I'm interested in you supporting it.

Radhnoti

As far as the name for the school, the current title of the sinthe.com website is "Sin The Karate Club."

The letter you folks keep referencing is hard to comment on. None of you have seen it (Original or copy), none of you know where it is, and none of you can say who the student was that originally brought it up. Interestingly, in spite of all these issues, you and GT are more inclined to believe it?

I would agree that there was an implied acknowledgment of Sin's status by Master Hiang. When I was in the old club, I thought the same. Based on what I know now, I have a different interpretation. Looking at things in hindsight, the obvious distance between them in the club may have been the result of a disagreement.

JP

So, you haven't seen the letter either but believe it completely? Has anyone on this forum since the letter?

GT

Again, another SD supporter who hasn't seen the letter, doesn't know where the letter is, doesn't know who posted the translation of the letter, but believes it completely, except for the Grandfather part. You know at this point, I'm tempted to declare victory and walk away.

I'll disregard your theft allegation. Another claim for which you have no support.

My interest in certificates is this: Your instructor claims to have been made the GM of a particular school by his former teacher. He has posted a certificate in his school that is supposedly to establish this fact. If this isn't what he bases his claim on then produce something, anything, that does.

Oh, good luck finding the word "karate" on one of Master Hiang's certificates. Karate is the transliteration of two Japanese characters.

Remember, you've made the claim that 1) Sin is the grandmaster 2) He has 900 forms 3) The school was always called "Shaolin Do". These are your (collective) statements on this forum.

Still waiting for something......anything.....a photo.....a certificate......a letter.....