Registered User
CFT,
Both are good, done in each direction. Also then the circle around the whole abdomen including around your back. Basically you are mimicing the main internal rotations of the tan tien, externally. Because of your instabile position on the ball your abdomen musculature will 'mirror' your movement. Then you get off the ball and repeat just the internal abdomen movement without any weights or arm motion in one of your 'standing' postures.
Good luck.
Registered User
No, Scott. Don't tell me........You mean this master is not for real?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGoOG1I_i7c
Registered User
WHAAAAAAAAAAAA! That's unfair!!!
No really, you don't have to search YouTube for ridiculous manifestations of external training.... just go to any fitness club/gym in the world, and watch the majority of 'practitioners' doing their weight training equally under the delusion that it's 'real'.
Yeah man, it's real alright. Really bad for your health and your longevity. Of couse they're not wearing silk PJs....
Last edited by spiralstair; 09-29-2006 at 11:45 AM.
Scott-
Your the one that said "chi", not me. I never brought it up. That's called setting up a straw man so that you can knock it down. When people can't argue effectively against IMA they point to the most bizarre exponents of it who claim SUPERNATURAL abilities. No one has claimed that here, certainly not me, I am one of the most skeptical of people, antireligious if anything.
The truth is that you don't really have anymore of leg to stand on than I do. We're both arguing from OPINION based on our own experience.
There's two big obstacles that I see in people understanding and acceptance of IMA as unique and legitimate:
1) The initial explanation of HOW they work relies on outdated, pseudo-scientific paradigms.
2) 99% of people have not encountered people that have true understanding of IMA priniciples and can demonstrate them.
As far as #1 goes I see a lot of parallels with Chinese medicine. Initially, western science-based allopathic medicine rejected Chinese medicine as non-scientific hocus pocus. However, eventually some wise doctors saw that some of the treatments were very effective, equal to or more so than there western counterparts. However, did they totally abandon western scientific thinking? No, they still operated within that western scientific paradigm and began to unravel the effective from the non-effective. Today Chinese medical treatments, the ones that have proven efficacy are widely accepted and growing in acceptance. Some treatment has been ruled out as bunk. Its the same with IMAs. There's a lot of metaphysical hocus pocus associated with it (mostly perpetuated by those with little skill)but the core of how it works can be explained within a scientific paradigm.....its just no one has been inclined to do that.
Which leads me to point #2......
IMA isn't even on the radar of sports physiologists. How many people who do martial arts have encountered a high level IMA practitioner let alone the small percentage of the population that makes up elite athletic trainers and sports physiologists? The scientific studies on Taiji mostly have to do with epidemiology like "Less hip breaks in Seniors who do Taiji." The conception that most martial artists have of IMA is "kung fu done slowly." Like some kind of meditative dance or something. The ones that claim to do "combat IMA" tend to be ones that utilize the Taiji movements but don't do them with the correct body mechanics rendering them much less effective then they would be with the original correct body mechanics. Those are the same ones that say "lifting weights for IMA" is the way to go. That's because lifting weights does make their "IMA" better because their using raw strength to power their techniques. Then they say, hey look there's no difference between IMA and western strength training, when indeed there is.
So that's the impass Scott. To have a "rational" discussion people need to be willing to let go of the argument that because the explanation of how IMA worked was initially described using mystical sounding terminology that it some how renders them ineffective.
And secondly, people need to get "in touch", literally, with people that really understand and can readily demonstrate IMA principles in action and how it differs from the western conception of how the body works.
Until those things happen this impass will continue to exist.....and people will go for the more "scientific sounding" training.
Last edited by Fu-Pow; 09-29-2006 at 08:42 AM.
Registered User
Hi Dingo983,
You were supposed to say: “The chi ball is in Fu Pow’s court now!!”
I’m on a landline connection now so I will have to watch your clip later.
____
Hi TaiChiBob,
Nice workout! I like it!
My training program varies constantly, it usually changes every 4-8 weeks. It is determined primarily by my work and family responsibilities. I may stay with a program for 6 months though as well. At the moment I lift weights 3 days a week for 30-45 mins. I am about to increase that to 6 days a week for 30-45 mins. My workout will be:
Day One: 2 chest exercises and 2-3 back exercises, 2 pull-up exercises and one rowing exercise, and one anterior deltoid exercise, usually dumbbell presses.
Day Two: step ups high and low versions, deadlifts either traditional or stiff-legged deadlifts. Sometimes I add hack squats with a bar or dumbbells, and calves. When I have my machine set up I will also perform leg curls exercises.
Day Three: standing rows, and shrugs, sometimes I add dumbbell laterals, bar dips and incline dumbbell curls. Sometimes I add a second curl exercise or hammer curls and a superset of lying triceps extensions to close grip bench press followed by pullovers each one right after the other before resting.
I use a progressive program, meaning the weights progress from lighter at the beginning of a cycle to heavier and the end. I stick to 3 sets of 10 repetitions work sets with 2 sets of warm up per exercise. One minute between exercises and alternating exercises. So for example: I will do one set of pull-ups rest a minute, one set of bench then rest a minute then back to the pull-ups etc. 4 exercises takes 30 mins.
I perform stretching/yoga 2-5 days a week 1-1 ½ hrs. depending upon how much time I have.
I train boxing, aikido, push hands, ju jitsu, and grappling with my son 1-3 days a week.
3-5 days a week I perform a specialized form called Ba Chuan, 8 Fists. This is not the original name. The original name I learned over 25 years ago and I have determined it was not the original name. I do not know the original name. I have never found anyone who has heard of it. I gave it the present name myself. It is an exercise that contains 8 sections and each section has 8 sections. It involves moving down the floor 4 steps usually using a front kick to initiate the movement followed by a strike or combination of strikes. The strikes may be open hand, closed fist or elbows. Each section of the 8 smaller sections involves 8 different types of strikes. The strikes in order are as follows, horizontal fist, vertical fist, uppercut, roundhouse, back fist, overhead strike, hanging fist, and chop or hammer fist. Each strike is performed for the four steps forward then a set of change over strikes is used to reverse direction and the next strike is performed for 4 steps. This continues until all 8 strikes are performed. That is the end of the first set. The basic sets are as follows.
Set 1: single strikes
Set 2: two strikes alternating hands
Set 3: three strikes alternating hands
Set 4: two strikes with the same hand
Set 5: simultaneous strikes with both hands at the same time
Set 6: strike with the lead hand, parry with the rear hand followed by another strike with the lead
Set 7: elbows
Set 8: open hand strikes
One complete exercise involves 248 kicks and over 500 strikes. I perform this exercise twice. The first set of 8 Fists is performed according the traditional pattern. The second set of 8 Fists I perform as I choose at the moment. I may perform all 8 sets openhanded, or all with elbows or I may perform various punching combinations similar to boxing combinations, etc. Sometimes I use roundhouse kicks instead of front kicks. When the exercise is performed twice there are 500 kicks and over 1,000 strikes thrown. It takes me from 12-16 mins per complete set of 8 Fist depending upon how fast I chose to move. This is a skill and aerobic exercise combination.
In addition I perform 3-10 sets boxing rounds shadow boxing or on the bag and from 120-360 of about 6 other types of kicks depending upon the time available and my condition at the moment. On occasion I train with weapons, but I have not had the time for awhile. The weapons I use are the short staff (my personal favorite), bokken (wooden samurai sword) and a wooden jian.
I also use a Concept II rowing machine when I feel like using another aerobic activity.
Registered User
Hi Fu Pow,
As usual you have missed the point by not paying attention or reinterpreting the conversation according to your own prejudices. The comments about Chi are meant as a dig towards your foolish devotion to your Tai Chi Master’s opinion as opposed to SCIENTIFIC FACT!!! You brought up his great wisdom. I am merely ridiculing you for believing his tripe over established and proven FACTS!!
You cannot prove that thousands of years of training protocols are meaningless because someone discovered or demonstrated the effectiveness of internal protocols. I have already stated the internal protocols are used by elite athletes.
I have already stated I respect IMA and practice many of the principles (since they are not the sole possession of IMA). I have repeatedly stated I am responding to your repeated misinformation regarding weight training and your foolish refusal to accept established scientific findings.
Believe what you want! I don’t care! What I am saying is do not spout off falsehoods about topics you are ill-informed about. Weight training is NOT detrimental to anyone if performed according to proper technique and protocols. It enhances performance and improves health and well being when used properly. It helps to reduce the chance of injury and increases the recovery from injury. It DOES NOT shorten life or reduce martial effectiveness. When practiced properly it lengthens life and increases martial effectiveness. Informed weight trainers DO NOT think that working on the parts will MAGICALLY improve the whole. Weight training does not give someone a pretty exterior while internally they have a mass of diseased or dysfunctional organs. Weight training is part of a well rounded training program. You are the one who repeatedly and ignorantly states these FACTS are false.
This constant refusal or yours to accept simple basic FACTS that have been repeatedly demonstrated for thousands of years and whose evidence is easily discovered invites ridicule. The only reason I continue to entertain this discussion with someone of your clearly limited understanding is to counter your misinformation and as a form of training for myself.
I am not trying to change your opinion. You will enjoy the fruits of your foolishness. It is your choice and I respect your right to behave foolishly. However, others may need to read a counter to your foolishness lest they think it has any real merit.
Registered User
Oh yeah!
I forgot abs! Hanging legs raises 3 sets. Legs straight and raised all the way up to the bar, 15-20 eeps. Then 3 sets of decline sittups. About 45* decline. Sets of 15-30 reps 3 days a week.
Registered User
Jeeze Scott, careful with the hanging leg raises, man. You can give yourself a SERIOUS hernia doing them all the way up to the bar on a day your 'chi' is low.
Then afterwards it's not just your chi that's low....
Registered User
Greetings..
Hi Scott: LOL, i'm just an old guy gettin' by.. but, thanks.. your regimen would devour me.. i'm just tryin' play smart and avoid past mistakes, still nursing old battle scars..
Keep the faith, and.. Be well..
TaiChiBob.. "the teacher that is not also a student is neither"
Registered User
"2) 99% of people have not encountered people that have true understanding of IMA priniciples and can demonstrate them."[quote]
Just curious. Do you consider yourself the 1% who has encountered these people or one of the people who can understand and demonstrate IMA principles?
You haven't provided any hard scientific facts, you're speaking in total generalities.Originally Posted by Scott R. Brown
Really, like who? What pro, elite athletes study IMA? Where did they learn it?You cannot prove that thousands of years of training protocols are meaningless because someone discovered or demonstrated the effectiveness of internal protocols. I have already stated the internal protocols are used by elite athletes.
What findings? You want to point to this mountain of evidence and yet you provide not one reference. Again...generalities.I have already stated I respect IMA and practice many of the principles (since they are not the sole possession of IMA). I have repeatedly stated I am responding to your repeated misinformation regarding weight training and your foolish refusal to accept established scientific findings.
I know a lot about weightlifting. I've lifted and done extensive reading on it. Its never done me a **** bit of good in the martial sense. Its a waste of time for martial arts or just about any other athletic endeavor.Believe what you want! I don’t care! What I am saying is do not spout off falsehoods about topics you are ill-informed about.
Now you are trying to overstate my case so you can knock it down. I never said that it would "shorten life or reduce martial effectiveness." What it does do is increase risk of injury and limit internal martial arts potential.Weight training is NOT detrimental to anyone if performed according to proper technique and protocols. It enhances performance and improves health and well being when used properly. It helps to reduce the chance of injury and increases the recovery from injury. It DOES NOT shorten life or reduce martial effectiveness. When practiced properly it lengthens life and increases martial effectiveness.
People want to say "external and internal training" are the same thing, therefore they can be trained in the same way. Pro-athletes are internal, powerlifters are internal.....that's because, they, like you don't understand how they are different. We are all made of cells, tissues, nerves, blood etc. but there's a lot of different things that you can do with that starting material.
First of all what is an "informed" weight trainer? You yourself said that these protocols are 1000's of years old. So what's changed? What defines an informed weightlifter.Informed weight trainers DO NOT think that working on the parts will MAGICALLY improve the whole.
The argument is whether weightlifting will inhibit internal development. The answer is yes, it will. They are different ways of moving to develop different skill sets. It would be like having a golfer train like football player or vice versa. IMA demands a certain set of skills, supported by a certain kind of body mechanics...different from that of external.Weight training does not give someone a pretty exterior while internally they have a mass of diseased or dysfunctional organs. Weight training is part of a well rounded training program.
Those that think otherwise don't understand the difference between internal and external....hint: it has nothing to do with chi.
What a bunch of bull$hit. Its to stroke your own ego and win the argument. Let's call a spade a spade.This constant refusal or yours to accept simple basic FACTS that have been repeatedly demonstrated for thousands of years and whose evidence is easily discovered invites ridicule. The only reason I continue to entertain this discussion with someone of your clearly limited understanding is to counter your misinformation and as a form of training for myself.
Your not going to change my opinion....you can keep on pumping that iron to develop your "peng" body mechanics. I just wonder how long you can delude yourself that you have internal skill?I am not trying to change your opinion. You will enjoy the fruits of your foolishness. It is your choice and I respect your right to behave foolishly. However, others may need to read a counter to your foolishness lest they think it has any real merit.
Have a nice day.
FP
Last edited by Fu-Pow; 09-29-2006 at 01:22 PM.
Banned
There was a clip of a push hands guy that challanged this taiji master and the guy kept hitting him and the taiji master still didnt get to bounce him away or anything. I think it was the Chen Taiji successor or something!!?
What is an internal skill?
Garry
Registered User
LOL!! Hi Bob,
Actually I was thinking the same thing about your workout. I was quite impressed with your self discipline and commitment. I guess we tend to think less of what we are familiar with.
I am used to it so I guess I dont think much of it, LOL, and it is actually alot less than I used to do. Time and responsibility restrictions interfer as I am sure we all experience.
Registered User
Hello Garry,
Obviousely his Qi was protecting him so the master does not care if he gets hit. Not to mention the guy probably would suffer internal Qi damage and died 49 days later. Much like Kill Bill's "Five Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique".
Cheers,
John
(man, I shouldn't joke about these things...)
Banned
Hi John,
Hows things bro, im all for the testing of peng jing or the like and i really enjoy the info you and bob give for the CTS etc. But im still finding it very hard to agree with reality based type work and bouncing people if you catch my drift?
So what im trying to understand from all this info and this thread regarding strength "Internally" so far i havent seen anything from anyone yet that hasnt much to do with good leverage, technique, timing etc.
So my question what is internal strength or power! Can it be combined with external training such as weight which i believe is part and parcel to have both yin and yang combined as a balance.
I think shaking sticks, weighted balls, kettlebells and many other traditional methods are for functional strength as well helps flexibiltyb and range of motion.
Garry
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