Hung Gar/CLF + Wing Chun? Hung Gar/CLF + BJJ?

[Gowgee]

Since the stances and footwork are different in these arts, I'd like to know how you blend them in sparring/application in terms of the different heights of stances, allignment and footwork.

So how does front, horse, cat etc blend with WC's stances, or BJJ's fairly heavy use of a front-like stance?

[Ben Gash]

I don't. I sometimes use something akin to a WC triangle step, but in my mind (and my usage) it's just a high CLF triangle step. I did WC for quite a while, and I had to do it again for a little while last year, and I found it impossible not to drive my hip into attacks.

[David Jamieson]

I don't know if you need to blend the clf with the hung or wing chun and so on.

clf and hung stances are pretty similar in that they use big 5 shaolin stances while wing chun opts for a shorter and higher version and a couple of stances taht are still shaolin, just not big 5 such as yee gee kim yeung ma and a higher bow stance.

you could have any one of those three stand alone and on the side you could look at wrestling or jujitsu or gjj or bjj to shore up the time you spend on the ground rolling.

clf doesn't offer big changes to hung and hung doesn't reciprocate, not that they are the same arts, just taht they don't need to be mixed because they address most of the same things in their curriculum as far as stand up, throws, grabs holds releases etc. wing chun is a distilled version of shaolin and doesn't need to be mixed with either of those either. But all three don't spend much time on the ground and could use that aspect to round them out on the whole.

[Gowgee]

Thanks. It seems like there's a spectrum of thought from keeping the arts strictly seperate (like the Ng Family's school) to those who blend them (like Cho family WC 1 and 2, as well as arts like JKD and Tim Cartmell's school).

To be honest, I'm interested in the blending. A hung gar friend who recently got into some MMA training says he's shortened up his stances and has a more agressive game to address the boxing tactics he faces in MMA. Is this par for the course? Are the deeper stances of HG/CLF and shallower stances of WC resolved by meeting half-way in sparring?

[David Jamieson]

The gross textbook movements of forms from cma are not intended to be used as such. Every teacher worth his salt and most publication involving application of kungfu show that training shape is different from application shape.

if you try to fight with textbook moves, you are going to have some difficulty.

Hung Kuen in application does tighten up, closes in the gates and raises the body up to become more mobile.

Low develops the strength you require for high. This principle pervades Shaolin Kungfu and tcma in general.

Once you get to a point where you are no longer thinking what you are doing, and adapt to where you are at optimum flow and have corrected structure through force feedback, there isn't much of a reequirement to blend, but instead take the art and use it as intended which is not in the textbook shape.

deep sei ping ma is for training not for fighting. The horse rises and shortens the bow shortens, stances are made higher, many are expressed as transition points in the mobility of the practitioner and so on.

Hung in application to fighting, like clf or wc, does not exactly mirror the forms that are tarined within the method of learning the style.

tighten up, raise, close the gates, create the diamond that makes it difficult to enter your gates and better for you to come out of them.

[ablinkin]

tighten up, raise, close the gates, create the diamond that makes it difficult to enter your gates and better for you to come out of them.

that is a very interesting thought, I never thought about it quite like that, I naturally raise my stances in "combat" for mobility, but until reading this post I never realized it, very good analogy

[TenTigers]

In our Tang Fong line of Hung-Ga, in the pillar sets, the beginning is always performed in yi ji kim yeung ma. The early pre-WFH Hung Kuen had closer in stances, shorter bridges, and had more in common with Wing Chun and the Hakka Kuen. Only after the long bridging was added from Wong Yun-Lum's Hop-Ga did it get larger. The deep square horse is indeed for training, yet the ability to sink and root your ma is neccesary to perform certain takedowns, and strikes.
In our version, the bow stance is also not as deep or "locked out" as seen in some other schools. In our training, it is neccesary to shift,raise, lower,sink, open, close,all at a moment's notice depending on what is given(when you touch).
Ride the subway without holding the handrails and you will see how to adjust your stances.=Urban Kung-Fu!

[ablinkin]

Tentigers:

Tang Fong, what is the difference in that and traditional Hung Gar? I take Hung Gar from one of Tony Brown's schools, and have not been doing so for very long (about 4 months) I really like it but I strive to know more of the history of the various family origins....

[Shaolindynasty]

CLF doesn't mix well at all with wing chun. Each method has it's own structure and strategy. If you tried to "mix" the 2 into some kind of hybrid you'll end up reducing the effective qualities of both.

It's also unessacary to mix them since they both address the same issues (although in a different manner).

As a side note the only person I know of with the Ng fam that has trained in both methods is my Sifu's son, Phil. He's excellent at both methods but also keeps them seperate for the reasons stated above.

[Mano Mano]

Since the stances and footwork are different in these arts, I'd like to know how you blend them in sparring/application in terms of the different heights of stances, allignment and footwork.

So how does front, horse, cat etc blend with WC's stances, or BJJ's fairly heavy use of a front-like stance?

Basically if someone was proficient in all of the above arts they really wouldn’t need to ask for advice, their personal fighting art would evolve though experience.

[TenTigers]

hey Ablinkin,
Wong Fei-Hung had several students, but the two that are the most well-known are Lam Sai-Wing and the lesser known Tang-Fong. LSW was larger and stronger, TF was smaller and wiry, hence their interpetations of the art differed slightly. Tang Fung was nicknamed "Lo Wan Ku"-Old Square Mind, because of his strictness in teaching.

[chasincharpchui]

hey Ablinkin,
Wong Fei-Hung had several students, but the two that are the most well-known are Lam Sai-Wing and the lesser known Tang-Fong. LSW was larger and stronger, TF was smaller and wiry, hence their interpetations of the art differed slightly. Tang Fung was nicknamed "Lo Wan Ku"-Old Square Mind, because of his strictness in teaching.

leung foon leung foon leung foon leung foon

[ablinkin]

tentigers,
Thanks for the history lesson The more history I learn about Hung Gar, the more I seem to like it! Coming from Tae Kwon Do, there have been some big adjustment issues, but I enjoy kung fu much more and seem to really get alot more out of it, mentally and physically. Was there a reason you chose Hung Gar?

thanks again

[TenTigers]

chasingcharpchui. I have heard of leung foon, but haven't seen any schools under that line. What can you tell us of this lineage?

[Laukarbo]

Leung Foon died at young age and never taught....
he even died in dreadnought.....