Forms/Fighting thread

[lkfmdc]

I would de-construct the practice of forms in two ways

1) Context...

Perhaps in circumstances where there is one teacher and few students, like "old china", it was a way to get students to practice something over and over again. Also, with few potential partners and no equipment, what else can you really do?

2) as an outdated methodology of training

Clearly to some extent forms were meant as a form of movement training and body awareness.... but again, times change, and other, better methods arrive

[SevenStar]

Sorry, but where I come from, the shadowboxing was to work mechanics of the individual punches and the combinations. We certainly did them with intent and the coach watched our mechanics very carefully. We skipped rope and hit the speedbag to warmup. We practised specific combinations, not random ones, before transferring to the mitts.

what you describe here is not shadowboxing. you are just drilling techniques. This is usually done before a person moves up to being able to shadowbox. Once these techniques are learned with proficiency, you stop doing them in the air preset and move onto mitts, shadowboxing and various types of bag work. Notice that all of those are spontaneous. At advanced levels, mitt work is also spontaneous.

And as far as forms being the bulk of a kung fu workout, well, you are welcome to your generalizations.

several people here have acknowledged truth to this. It's been my experience also.

warmup
forms work
applications
bow out

but out of the 1.5 hour class we spent about 15 mins on warm up and 15 mins on application drilling. an hour on average was for forms. sparring was only done once a week during class. sometimes, some of us would spar on our own after class was over. Every TMA school (not just kung fu) that I trained at followed a similar format.

[TenTigers]

so, sevenstar, are you still at those schools, or did you wake upand move on?

AHHHHHHHHHSH!!!!!TTT!

aw.man. I just fell off my soapbox. ouch.

ok, i'm ok. uhh..ok, I'm back on.(whew!) I coulda hurt myself up there

[Ray Pina]

Personally, I think unarmed martial arts are better than they've ever been. I'm guessing in the past, much like today, if you found yourself on the battle field without a weapon you were ****ed. And then, like today, if I really had it in my heart to do away with someone for whatever reason, I would most likely ambush them with a weapon.

So how much time did real warriors devote to unarmed combat when swords, speers and even staffs or poles were available for defense... and offense? Even Cain used a rock on Able.

Today, ina relative peaceful society, we are now able to study and train unarmed combat for the sake of unarmed combat alone. And we now have venues where kicking, punching, locking, throwing and submission grappling can be employed at the same time. Add to this seven figure pay off for the top dogs.... the will, motivation, access to the best methods are there in ways never before available.

This is not saying anything about one style or another.

[mantis108]

Forms, Routine, Taolu, Quan(fist), Jia(frame) and whatever label used to be a very serious matter. In some styles, it has developed highly to the point that it becomes a coherent set of anatomical precepts which are designed to transform sick or weak consititutions to health and fitness (martial) to handle laborious tasks (ie fighting). The meek becomes courageous with definite martial skills. The power base is the mental faculty channelling through the corporal nucleus (physical center of gravity of a human body) known as Dantian and then extented out to build a delivery system whatever that may be.

Then came along human being's number one friend and foe - imagination. Imagination as used by the Mckwoon/McDojo and Modern Wushu crowd totally gave legit Kung Fu forms a bad reputation. They fabricated many many useless forms, which I call pulp fictions or carpola, for commercial purposes.

When a delivery system is developed based not on truth but imagination, Huston, we have a problem.

The problem really is the lack of proper education especially in the Chinese worldview IMHO. It's really are the fault of the so called masters and worst self proclaimed Grandmasters.

Mantis108

[gabe]

"what you describe here is not shadowboxing. you are just drilling techniques. This is usually done before a person moves up to being able to shadowbox. Once these techniques are learned with proficiency, you stop doing them in the air preset and move onto mitts, shadowboxing and various types of bag work. Notice that all of those are spontaneous. At advanced levels, mitt work is also spontaneous."


Forms is exactly that- drilling techniques and movement in the air. Same with kung fu. You go from contrived to spontaneous. All styles are supposed to work this way.

I practised jabbing all over the ring. That became combinations. Then the freestyling. This was all shadowboxing according to my coach. And once we became proficient, we did not stop doing them in the air. We continued to drill them in the air in what is called shadowboxing, just as the pro's do. Neither you nor tentigers have distinguished what you both call drills and shadowboxing, other than you stating that shadowboxing is spontaneous. You just never did your kung fu forms in that manner.

For me, whether boxing or kung fu, we always looked for three techniques and "drilled" them. The whole form was just a catalogue, while we concentrated on the pieces, found ones that worked for us and favored these in actual sparring. All arts work like this. Was it masterkiller who said it took a long time to master all the forms- well, as I understand it, you don't go for all the techniques- you pick them and make them your own. All the traditional masters specialized this way, whether cma or boxing or any martial art.

As far as schools that do nothing but form, hey no argument there. There isn't a single post on these forums I think that states that one can fight by doing just forms. And nobody denies the existence of crap schools. Yet you guys keep bringing it up as if it's every cma'ist's routine. Why not, it's the easy way for you to argue. Anybody can argue against a strawman.

[MasterKiller]

Add to this seven figure pay off for the top dogs.... the will, motivation, access to the best methods are there in ways never before available.

I think Matt Hughes makes something like $100,000....not quite seven figures.

[SevenStar]

so, sevenstar, are you still at those schools, or did you wake upand move on?

AHHHHHHHHHSH!!!!!TTT!

aw.man. I just fell off my soapbox. ouch.

ok, i'm ok. uhh..ok, I'm back on.(whew!) I coulda hurt myself up there

No - I've since gone back to muay thai and grappling.

[Ray Pina]

I think Matt Hughes makes something like $100,000....not quite seven figures.

I'm quite sure Chuck Lidell is a millionaire... Randy C too. Hughes, if he's not, will be there soon if he's smart.

[Pork Chop]

Been watching all these dead horses get pretty well thrashed lately, so let me offer up the age-old standards to these arguments...

forms become the focus of training for principle based arts as opposed to technique based arts.

the idea is that by practising full forms, you'll magically pick up the principle first, and then achieve spontaneous execution of whatever random technique fits the principle. To have this kind of spontaneous reaction takes years and years of practise.

on the other hand technique based arts have you drill certain techniques into the ground and over time figure out how to apply them. Boxing tends to be the most used example of a technique-based art.

Personally, i feel that the idea of a principle-based martial art is a myth. I think ultimately every art comes down to techniques that you need to hone and knowing when & how to use them.

I would be really curious to see kung fu applied to the Muay thai model of- practise these 6 or 7 techniques first, learn to fight with them, and then add in the fancy moves as you figure out when and how to use them. Of course this has pretty much already been done with san shou.

Once you've learned the basics & proper structure of Taiji, you should probably spend a large portion of your practise time on push hands & honing your favorite techniques, with a more moderate portion of time on forms & such.

Once you've learned the basics & proper structure of a bridging art like Hung Gar or Preying Mantis, you should probably spend a large portion of your practise freestyling bridging engagments & honing your favorite techniques, with a more moderate portion of your time on forms.

Buk Sing Choy Lay Fut spends very little time on forms- opting more for drilling on pads & sparring. I think you anti-TCMA folks would be suprised at how their practise time is spent. And yeah, from my experience, they use whipping punches and not straight boxing.

The reason I think Buk Sing succeeds where a lot of others fail is because they've stood up and said "okay, here are our bread and butter techniques, the rest of the stuff we got try to add in over time", which seems to be something most kung fu styles are reluctant to do - because it "limits" their style.

On the other thread someone was talking trash about a backfist- and "how come we never see it in boxing?". The thing is, we do, OFTEN- but it's kind of "cheating". Ali threw most of his jabs as backfists. A lot of boxers follow up a jab with a quick backfist arm punch before throwing the cross.

Of course these aren't the backfist powershots that were dismissed in that thread as well. I've seen those type of power backfists used in Kuoshu leitai- i think by Dave Wiltshire. I've felt them bouncing off my nose before and I can say that they're hard to track & defend against- kinda like a looping overhand that doesn't follow the trajectory you expect.

TCMA has a ton of good stuff in it. it's just that the approach used by most schools isn't going to make you a good fighter and the reason for that a lot of times is because they let politics dictate how they train. For most schools they try to cram the entire cirriculum down your throat and leave it up to you to pick your bread & butters, refine them, figure out how to use 'em, and spar with them on your own time. Other times, they want you to practise developmental drills for years before you even get enough to start doing that stuff.

I really liked Muay Thai because it's a traditional style with a lot of that guesswork taken care of for you. If you think muay thai doesn't have joint attacks, guiding principles like centerline theory, prearranged routines, internal development, breathing drills, rooting, or techniques that are illegal in the ring- then you don't really know much about it. In muay thai you get quick fighting skills first and then have the rest of your life to cultivate the rest to add into your repertoire later.

Okay I'm gonna jump off my soap box now.
I'm just a little put off by the attitude that anyone who doesn't toot the CMA party line of superhero masters and magic forms is somehow a kung fu basher; just like I'm put off by the attitude that "well all good martial arts looks like kickboxing anyway, so just do that instead".

Sure there's good stuff in CMA, but getting to it is the issue.
Sure there's a whole lot less BS to wade through by going the fighting sport route, but don't throw the baby out with the bath water- there's some good stuff there if the people teaching it would only change their approach.

[mantis108]

what you describe here is not shadowboxing. you are just drilling techniques. This is usually done before a person moves up to being able to shadowbox. Once these techniques are learned with proficiency, you stop doing them in the air preset and move onto mitts, shadowboxing and various types of bag work. Notice that all of those are spontaneous. At advanced levels, mitt work is also spontaneous.



several people here have acknowledged truth to this. It's been my experience also.

warmup
forms work
applications
bow out

but out of the 1.5 hour class we spent about 15 mins on warm up and 15 mins on application drilling. an hour on average was for forms. sparring was only done once a week during class. sometimes, some of us would spar on our own after class was over. Every TMA school (not just kung fu) that I trained at followed a similar format.

There is another methodology which I called the Short Strike Methodology that is smiliar to the following link demo by the Chinese (Guangdong) SWAT team training.

Guangdong SWAT Team Demo

The link showed something similar to the experience that I have in our Mantis training. I believe old timers have this type of group training experience. There are 100s of short strike combo like those shown in the clip not to mention the counters to each. So essentially, you can drill these for the entire class like this

warmup (15 to 20 mins H.I.I.T.)
forms work (the combos [10 to 12] that you are focusing on 15 to 20 mins)
applications (step by step drilling 30 mins and drilling them as a whole 30 mins)
sparring (20 - 30 mins)
Cool down (10 - 15 mins)
bow out

This way of drilling is relative safe even without the protective equipments IMHO.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[SevenStar]

Forms is exactly that- drilling techniques and movement in the air. Same with kung fu. You go from contrived to spontaneous. All styles are supposed to work this way.

forms are done in the air, but are pre set. they also have "hidden applications" you will not find these in shadowboxing. there are similarities, but they are not the same.

[quote]I practised jabbing all over the ring. That became combinations. Then the freestyling. This was all shadowboxing according to my coach. And once we became proficient, we did not stop doing them in the air. We continued to drill them in the air in what is called shadowboxing, just as the pro's do.[//quote]

I didn't say you stop doing them in the air - I said you stop doing them in a preset fashion. In addition, shadowboxing tends to take a backseat to sparring and mitt / bagwork, so even if you do considerit a form (which it's not) it's still a minor role compared to the rest.

Neither you nor tentigers have distinguished what you both call drills and shadowboxing, other than you stating that shadowboxing is spontaneous. You just never did your kung fu forms in that manner.

drills are repetitions of an application. a form is a string or pre set techniques. A form can be broken down into drills. shadowboxing is a spontaneous expression of the techniques you drill, simulating a fight. As stated above, similar to a form yet different.

For me, whether boxing or kung fu, we always looked for three techniques and "drilled" them. The whole form was just a catalogue, while we concentrated on the pieces, found ones that worked for us and favored these in actual sparring.

IMO, that's how it should be done. dunno if I would limit myself to three though. In judo, they told us to have at least 8 - one throw for each direction. In muay thai I like combos gallore - punches in bunches.

And nobody denies the existence of crap schools. Yet you guys keep bringing it up as if it's every cma'ist's routine. Why not, it's the easy way for you to argue. Anybody can argue against a strawman.

nah, it's not about an easy argument at all. I like to debate anyway, so the more challenging the better. But, notice that most everyone here will agree that 95% of schools are crap. Also, notice how nobody that is on these forums will admit to training in one... I doubt everyone on this forum is in the 5%. It's like the 18 year old guy in his group of friends that is afraid to admit he's still a virgin.

[SevenStar]

There is another methodology which I called the Short Strike Methodology that is smiliar to the following link demo by the Chinese (Guangdong) SWAT team training.

Guangdong SWAT Team Demo

The link showed something similar to the experience that I have in our Mantis training. I believe old timers have this type of group training experience. There are 100s of short strike combo like those shown in the clip not to mention the counters to each. So essentially, you can drill these for the entire class like this

warmup (15 to 20 mins H.I.I.T.)
forms work (the combos [10 to 12] that you are focusing on 15 to 20 mins)
applications (step by step drilling 30 mins and drilling them as a whole 30 mins)
sparring (20 - 30 mins)
Cool down (10 - 15 mins)
bow out

This way of drilling is relative safe even without the protective equipments IMHO.

Warm regards

Mantis108

I was hoping you'd mention that, if not here then in one of the other threads where it was mentioned how people trained back in the day. I've referred to it a lot since you first brought it up a few years ago.

[SevenStar]

I'm quite sure Chuck Lidell is a millionaire... Randy C too. Hughes, if he's not, will be there soon if he's smart.

they wouldn't be millionaires from a single payoff though -- it would be cumulative over the number of fights they've had, and endorsements. it'll be a long time before you see an mma guy with a single 7 figure payoff.

[FatherDog]

I think Matt Hughes makes something like $100,000....not quite seven figures.

Main event headliners get a portion of the PPV proceeds as a bonus in addition to the show/win money that's reported to the athletic commission.