about Bruce Lee

[Black Jack II]

http://www.fightauthority.com/street...os.php?sid=686

Here is a clip if anyone has not seen the infamous fight. If you want to actually call it a fight.

[PangQuan]

is that why they stopped the fight?

if not then were they actually effective for the fight? or just an effetive after effect due to ali's un lucky legs

i still dont see why they stopped

[lkfmdc]

they didn't stop it, it went 15 rounds, 15 boring rounds, to a draw

[PangQuan]

Lol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[PangQuan]

ali is just lucky he had the rules he had, or it wouldnt of lasted 1 round

[Knifefighter]

http://www.fightauthority.com/street...os.php?sid=686

Here is a clip if anyone has not seen the infamous fight. If you want to actually call it a fight.

If I'm not mistaken, I think that was pro wrestler Freddie Blassie in the front of Ali's entourage...

Yep, that was him.

And the referee was non other than Gene LeBell.

I had forgotten all about this fight... the first MMA butt scoot.

I had also forgotten what a bad actor Ali was.

That actaully was pretty fascinating from a strategic perspective... the best heavy weight boxer in the world couldn't land a punch on what was basically a pro wrestler who pretty much kicked his legs to shred and dominated him after taking him down during the short time they were on the ground.

BJ-
Do you know if there is anyplace to get the full 15 rounds?

[PangQuan]

lol

so that was genes hair i saw....****, that man can be spotted by the back of his head.

[lkfmdc]

That actaully was pretty fascinating from a strategic perspective... the best heavy weight boxer in the world couldn't land a punch on what was basically a pro wrestler who pretty much kicked his legs to shred and dominated him after taking him down during the short time they were on the ground.

Unlike later pro wrestling figures like Sayama, Maeda, Funaki, etc Inoki was never thought to be much of a shooter. He did fake matches, they looked fake, he was never much in the gym... but he did have Gotch working with him. Can you imagine if he could have hit with a closed fist, kicked the head, used throws? Use even his bad submissions?

I tihnk the clip shows the public demos that both did to promote teh fight. Story has it that teh rule changes came after Ali's camp saw the kicks and the arm locks

[Knifefighter]

The Ali - Inoki fight can not be referred to as a standard.. Inoki was lying at the floor most of the time.. I remember watching it live and we were all very much offended and disappointed to see that technique.. although it worked well for Inoki and may be he would not stand for a single round if he went for a real fight.. and Ali's techniques did not work as he had to go by the boxing rules and could not come and kick Inoki out of the ring.. so this single non-standard reference can not negate the overall effectiveness of dancing..

Notice how bad the change of fighting style made Ali, the master of flash, look.

Now maybe you can understand why MMA fighters don't "look" quite so crisp and flashy.

[Knifefighter]

and further more....why couldnt he pull off a sweep.

ali....a boxer....didnt even fall.

looks like the leg kicks were 100% innefective

Ineffective? Didn't fall? He was knocked clean off his feet at least twice from thigh kicks in just that short clip.

[PangQuan]

ya i posted that after watching a clip that was edited in ali's favor.

after rewatching the clip dave posted. i eat those words respectfully. :P

but still, i think ali would have been toast if the rules were looser.

i would predict first round submission

[Shossain]

It only get's better....

Or, in other words, a mish mash of stuff he picked up along the way...

And he didn't have access to many of the "better styles" did he really? Originaly JKD had very little grappling in it. Lee had very limited access to Muay Thai. His boxing came mostly from watching films of the fights, which would explain why his bag work was HORRIBLE. Ever seen that footage? Standing square in front of the bag, no movement, just hauling off with as big a shot as he cold throw

Lee was an undergraduate philosophy major, never graduated that I am aware of, and like many undergraduate philosophy students he was fond of stuff that sounded deep but didnt' mean much.

Extremely well known in martial arts world and also no surprise when you think Lee was a 130 something guy who had very little hands on experience against a 180 something Judo competitor who had tested his skills on the tatami

You also need to read up on the Ali-Inoki "fight", it was originally going to be a pro wrestling work, until Ali's ego wouldnt' let him "lose" even in a FAKE MATCH where teh host had paid a lot of money to bring him there and was paying him even more to appear.

Money already spent, Ali already in Japan and teh fight already announced, Inoki agreed to a REAL FIGHT, until Ali's camp saw the real fighting that Inoki was getting ready for (under Karl Gotch's hand by the way)

Ali then demanded new rules, including Inoki couldn't use a closed fist, couldn't kick the head, couldn't use suplex or Judo throws and couldn't use any submissions.

Again, Ali was blackmailing Inoki, who had put his entire promotional company in financial distress to bring Ali to Japan. So Inoki agreed.

All of Ali's fancy footwork couldnt' help him against a simple strategy, sit on the floor and kick the legs (Gotch's strategy by the way!)... .

It almost ended Ali's career

Well.. may be as a free man one has the liberty to make such assessment.. but Bruce showed how to come out of the boundaries of specific styles.. and definitely he did not just picked things but made improvements too.. he did not probably get to know every style but surely studied a lot.. more important s=is that he gave a lot of thoughts on the development of martial arts and did not keep himself limited to any specific style that most other people used to do at his time.. and he could come up with a new concept which others did not even think about..

Some talks against JKD like not having grappling or having very little influence of Muay Thai does not necessarily make JKD weak.. all the styles having a lot of grappling does not have a lot of other tools.. does Muay Thai have a lot of grappling? also does Muay Thai fixes the standards of martial arts.. does it cover all aspects of martial art.. surely it does not..

I did not met Bruce and as such don't have the capacity to judge his knowledge base.. but formal education level does not always indicates that level of knowledge one may attain.. in modern world Bill Gates of Microsoft is a clear example.. someone mentioned about the Tao of Jeet Kune Do here which is a compilation of Bruce's work and surely that is no job of an armature..

In the 1960s There were not too many CDs/DVDs available like we enjoy now a day.. I don't know how Bruce collected all those films as you are referring to learn punching.. and if someone don't like the way he used to punch a bag that does not necessarily mean that he did not know how to punch..

A quote on his strength from someone who knew him well -
Lee's feats of strength are the stuff of legend; from performing push-ups - on one hand! - or thumbs only pushups, to supporting a 125-pound barbell at arms length in front of him (with elbows locked) for several seconds, or sending individuals (who outweighed him by as much as 100 pounds in some instances) flying through the air and landing some 15 feet away as a result of a punch that Lee delivered from only one-inch away, the power that Bruce Lee could generate -- at a mere bodyweight of 135 pounds -- is absolutely frightening.

Surely boxers and wrestlers do not belong to the same ring.. however, here are the rules applied to Ali Inoki fight which looks quote reasonable for such a fight..
Final Rules (June 23rd)

1. TIME
15 3min rounds, with 1min intervals
2. POINTS
5point system by a referee and two judges.
3. UNIFORM
1. Boxing trunks or pro-wrestling pants
2. Boxing shoes or barefoot
3. Boxing glove, karate protective glove, bare hand, or bandaged hand. Different choice can be made for each round.
4. If used, the bandage must be approved by the opponent.
5. Any material can not be applied on the body or gloves unless injured.
4. DECISION
1. Judge: total scores from referee and judges if 15rounds are over.
2. Pinfall: After 3 counts with both shoulders are pinned on the mat
3. Knockout: After 10 counts by knock out
4. Give Up: A competitor or chief second forfeits
5. Injury: If the injury makes the fighter to discontinue. However, only the preassigned doctor can judge the injury.
5. FOULS
1. Hitting below the belt with fist
2. Hitting with knee or elbow
3. Hitting vital part
4. Headbutting
5. Attacking eyes with fingers or open glove
6. Offense after the referee orders a break
7. Hitting the back of the neck or kidney
8. Every chops used in pro-wrestling except slapping
9. Hitting throat Note: kicks regularly used in pro-wrestling are prohibited. However, when the wrestler's knees are on the ground or squatting down, he can use foot or legs to kick the opponent's legs. Must give the opponent a chance to show his will when asking him to give up. In case a big foul is made, referee can disqualify a fighter if he continues to have fouls after the first or second warning.
6. RESTRICTION
1. Boxer must follow the regular boxing rules when standing. Additionally, boxer can use punches on teh ground position. Also, boxer can change to wresting style.
2. Wrestler must follow the regular pro-wrestling rules with the exceptions mentioned above. Wrestler can not use punches when he is using holds but can hit with arm.
3. If fighter(s) touches the rope, referee must break, and both fighters must return to the middle of the ring.
4. If fighter(s) goes out of the ring, he must return to the ring within 20 counts.
5. If knocked out with a punch, 8 counts are given. No offense is allowed during this time.

It was Inoki who made fame out of this game not Ali.. Ali already earned the position where he is now.. and it was Ali who was judged the greatest sportsman of the 20th century which clearly indicates who he was..

[Shossain]

Notice how bad the change of fighting style made Ali, the master of flash, look.

Now maybe you can understand why MMA fighters don't "look" quite so crisp and flashy.

First of all I never said that dancing is mandatory on every situation.. but it helps in many ways.. but it may not be applicable in many circumstances.. specially when the opponent is mostly on the floor..

In my opinion MMA also does not support the idea of staying on floor constantly as a strategy.. even in wrestling those who are weak goes on the floor first and try to spend time there so that the opponent does not get much of a scope to earn some point or knock them out..

[Black Jack II]

Knife,

I googled my a$$ off and checked some other crevices. Nada man.

Antonio Inoki was way ahead of the ball back then. Not only did he tussle, though it was a boring tussle with Ali, he also crossed hands with Kyokushin fighter Willie Williams and judo gold medalist Willhem Rushka.

As for winning a street fight between with Ali or Inoki, whoever posted that question, who really knows who wins what. Ali's boxing sure had what some may term sport leakage if you look at it from a street perspective, the guy was not a street brawler like big T but again he was and will always be da man.

Still like him better when he kept his orginal name though.

[lkfmdc]

Antonio Inoki was way ahead of the ball back then. Not only did he tussle, though it was a boring tussle with Ali, he also crossed hands with Kyokushin fighter Willie Williams and judo gold medalist Willhem Rushka.

Those matches, and others billed as "pro wrestling vs martial art" were all fake pro wrestling matches.... some painfully obviously so

However, in many ways those fake matches introduced the era of reall MMA

Inoki had many of the wrestlers under him cross train in order to work those bouts, Sayama was sent to study kickboxing of Toshio Fujiwara (Sayama later formed Shooto). Inoki's "strong style" gave birth to later UWF, which in turn gave us guys like Funaki (Pancrase), Tamura and Sakuraba