Yeah, but if you can make it go round fast enough it makes you dizzy.Originally Posted by leejunfan
That was Zen, this is Tao
Yeah, but if you can make it go round fast enough it makes you dizzy.
'Talk is cheap because there is an excess of supply over demand'
Registered User
You are right.
and to be real honest, IMHO, lots of ancient training is not as effective as what we can do today if we use the biofeedback technology..... so, I am not advocate the all ancient is good either.
With
the biofeedback technology today, it is very good to help preserve lots of things.
That is Because now we could, by reading the data from the biofeedback machine compare that with the ancient writing of the mind/body states which needs to Enter into different condition or applications.
IE: when one sees one's HRV or heart beat variation rythm reflex one's dan dien breathing....etc. One knows the state and knows one got it right and know the result is surfacing...... in the old time this stuffs is almost cant be communicate and people spend decades just to making clear what the sifu is describing about.....
That part needs to be acknowlegde and explore somedays after we all know about what is the ancient try to do..... That is a big field with lots of excitement in it.
peace
Last edited by Hendrik; 02-24-2007 at 09:35 PM.
That was Zen, this is Tao
True. What we think is leading-edge today will seem primative in the future. What we must remember is that what we have today was built on the sacrifices of those who came before us. For that reason we should be respectful, IMO.
Keep in mind that technological innovation does not necessarily lead to improved quality of life. Some may argue that some technology has only served to detach us from our true humanity. I feel my life is better today because of my Wing Chun training. I am thankful for that gift.
'Talk is cheap because there is an excess of supply over demand'
Registered User
I fully agree with you.
peace
Registered User
See the tranditional Chinese internal way of WCK From GM TST lineage's WCK development.
Enjoy
" Originally Posted by 7106 View Post
Hi Murray,
I have some things I would like you to ask Sigung on my behalf.
There are several small questions, all related.
I’ll use language that I think will work from me to you.
I remember you mentioned elsewhere on the forum that Sigung achieved Nim Lik in the first two years of training, but had to hone his skill at applying it over his whole training, which is roughly fourteen years, plus the training since then (another 35 years or so).
Could you ask Sigung to remember all the way back to the beginning of his training, when he first began to feel different about how he was physically performing the moves of SLT.
My questions are all based during that time.
When Sigung came to Sydney I asked to feel his arm when he is applying Nim Lik, and it feels like something is moving under the skin of his forearm.
Is ‘Jin Sung’ the same thing as ‘Nim Lik’ or are they different (I assume they are different)? Is ‘Jin Sung’ stage two and ‘Nim Lik’ stage three? Is what I felt under Sigungs skin ‘Jin Sung’ or ‘Nim Lik’?
Does Sigung remember when he was building up this ability to concentrate and ‘move chi around his body’ and so forth, whether or not he was able initially to move it only through one part of the body before another – so maybe one limb before another, or arms before legs, or the spine before the limbs? Basically did he find it more difficult to move it into one region of the body over another?....
Hi Pat, currently I'm on a break from training for Chinese New Year.
I'll do my best to answer these questions, as we discuss this sort of thing a lot.
As for asking Sigung these particular questions... it would seriously be easier to ask Sifu simply because he can speak English and they're your questions so you know what you mean. My Cantonese is certainly not good enough to ask things like this so it'd need to be translated through a Sisuk so you'd be getting back a third-hand answer.
First of all, Jin Sung is not Nim Lik.
Also I did not mean to say you lift Jin Sung through your spine. Re-reading my post I can see how it could be read that way so I'm sorry.
It is chi channeling up the spine. Jin Sung will help this.
It is chi you felt in Sigung's arm.
I know chi is a hard to believe concept in the west. Maybe you could think of it as a physical thought. Or the physical reaction your thought has in your body.
As for where can it start? It has to start at the bottom and move up the spine. Once it reaches the top, you then sink it down through relaxing your muscles. At first you can only do small sections of the body. Ultimately the sinking and lifting should happen simultaneously and it should spread throughout your entire body.
Once you can sink it down your body, like you said you can put it in any direction you want, forwards, up, down, back etc.
The long pole is the hardest thing in Wing Chun because you are actually raising one half of the body while sinking the other half to make a movement.
As for control when you are learning... You can get glimpses of the state but if you are not relaxed and focussed enough you lose it the next moment and then can spend a long time searching for it again.
When you get it, it's constant.
Sigung says it is easier at first to gain control in the upper part of the body before learning to sink it further down but of course it depends on the person.
As for a strong feeling at the top of the spine... "
http://forums.wingchun.com.au/art/23...-spirit-2.html
Registered User
In the above post,
I called the SLT art the Snake powered Crane Potential. IMHO, that is what arrive after both a long time and effort of observation and investigation.
Why not called it a MIDDLE PATH?
so why is it not called middle path or combination of hard and soft or combination of internal or external.
That is IMHO because middle path, combination of hard and soft or combination of internal or external sounds good and sound deep but actually carefully examine it. It is very generalized , it is logical sound, but what actually the term tell us? IMHO, very superficial.
Snake powered Crane potential
As for Snake powered Crane potential, the following are how the structure could be investigate both in big picture and details.
1, Snake powered Crane potential is the uniqueness of WCK. as Bnice and others has mentioned, Emei 12 zhuang is not WCK and White Crane from fujian is not WCK. and WCK is not them.
Snake powered Crane potential makes WCK very unique and attractive.
application and core body-- the chinese way of mind set
So, to further investigate what is snake powered crane potential means. we could start to investigate via either application point of view or via "core body" point of view, but both will close the loop or big picture supporting each other disregard of where one starts. that is similar to a circle could be start from anywhere of the circle and always return to the same point as soon as it is a circle. Why do we have to us both the Application and Core Body view here? that is because the Chinese design is based on Core Body (tee) and Application (yoong) to describe the basic essencial components of an object, phenomenon...etc. So, we need to understand it via how those in the past think instead of apply our today's logic which doesnt lead us to see clearly what were they doing.
What is Potential means ?
Ok,
So, say start with Application,
the term "Potential" as in Sun Tzu the art of war described is about the potential of both Potential energy and Kinetic energy, one is in a static form and the other is in a dynamic form.
What is a crane potential?
In today's langugage, the Crane potential could be view as
a, The Centering/balancing or static potential is such as manifest when one is focus on center lining, elbow centering....etc. and
b, flow/transform or dynamic potential is such as manifest when one is doing chain punch, transform from tan to bong natually , adaptively disolve two arms with one.
The centering principle above is a core component of White Crane from Fujian namely the proper centering. Also, the flow/ transform principle above is another core component of white crane namely the five elements transformation principle.
one could found the above two core of applications within the SLT/SNT.
what is needed to power the crane potential in the SLT/SNT way?
Now,
to power the a and b, one could do it in different way. one could do it in a hard way with lots of body muscle action, external way with discrete but fast action, with soft way using resonance as string of a guitar, internal way with continous adaptive action.
and, looking at the SLT/SNT we see, a characteristic of Soft way using resonance and details continous adaptive action is an optimal way of handling the set.
So, that lead to how the Core body needs to be condition.
snake slides worm moves, the uniqueness of the Emei 12 zhuang
and,
if we examine the Emei 12 zhuang, we could find, the core of this art satisfied the above two needs. namely, via the Emei 12 zhuang's "snake slides worm moves", meaning the conditioning is done similar to a snake slides and a worm moves.
and often it is said snake arm worm finger. via this type of gradually softly and waving resonance, one condition one's full body.
Not to mention, this type of training/conditioning make able for one to transport the resonance waving power to the finger tip without tensing the arm or finger and still preserve the awareness or sensing of the same arm or finger. That--- is where Biu Jee power comes from. and, with the worm moves one could have a perfect handling in small details.
Now, in a deeper level, due to the travel of the qi in the Mai or medirians is a type of resonance in today's language. one is not only using the snake slide worm moves to power the explicit movement but also using the medirians transportation to power the inner resonance. This level of training needs the preparation traning of INtention, breathing, and Qi transport body to enter the "door" into the State.
majority of people doesnt aware of this level of art exist and is possible. indeed it is a key to implementing the concept "comes recieve....using silence to lead the action." we could only now trace this inner tradition of WCK to very few people such as GM TST's teaching.
Thus, with this type of power it is an optimal fit to power the crane potential applications naturally.
?
why only internal path will work
NOw, what we need to know is that this type of snake slides worm moves power could only be train from internal art conditioning as in the emei 12 zhuang classical writing said, " one must not applied any muscular force at all to any part of the body ".
That is implying any use of muscle tension or local forcing/tensing will not attain the result of the training. That is also the key of why it has to be internal art training and not the external one. not to mention, a tension body block the development of resonance power.
why is the parents needed?
The parents are needed because the parents could help one to see clearly and aids the process of developing the Potential and Power. So, is it really needed? yes, in our time, now, as an example we have lost the fool prove way of generate the short power. if we forcing the muscle trying to generate the short power, that end up jamming up the power and become rigid or discrete which is no longer the original vision of details continous adaptive flow of power which power up the SLT/SNT, eventhough it is great for demontration but could not be issued at will at any time for demanding applications. The generation of the short power must be simple, nature, and at ease lead by intention not tensing.
conclusion, imho
As a conclusion,IMHO, here above I post a brief on my view of SLT/SNT from the big picture and small details, what it is, what is its uniqueness, what is the key ingredient or components, where and which part of the mother art these keys are from. hopefully that could serve as a brief direction for anyone's who is interested in doing further research or self improvement.
and NOpe, just go study some white crane and some emei 12 zhuang is not going to get to become a master. One needs to be attaining the states to know what it is instead of name droping and term droping and thinking one knows it all.
not to mention, for example, just to get to be able to handle the "large character Zhuang "of the 12 zhuang needs a long time and depth of internal Zhen Qi training, it is about using Yee to lead the Qi to move the coins hang on a string. how long do one think one needs to develop this type of power? how many of us knows the details of training and the states of the process?
So, IMHO, often we in the west are just too naive of thinking joing a school means know it all. because we think mimic some postures and that's all. NOpe that is not all. it is about internal alchemy. it takes 100 days and 2 hours everyday to practice some state. and then another 100 days if the state is not attaint and then another 100days. and then another 100 days. it is not as simply as it looks. I am not trying to discourage but to show what is reality and why we dont have result today training the internal art--- most of us (me especiallY) doesnt have the patient and discipline.
however, doing the SLT/SNT properly will lead one to the insight. and that is the important thing, it is WCK not white crane or Emei 12 zhuang anyway. those are excellent aids not but WCK.
one example is checked out the GM TST group. They have insight and actually activating the first two special medirians.... So, it is not as some speculate on how my tread on dangerous ground in terms of words and Who defines what is internal?. Those who has practiced chinese internal art knows, those who has reached the state knows. it is basics stuffs but lots of people was not expose to these.
http://forums.wingchun.com.au/art/23...-spirit-2.html
in the past 60 years or so we have do a great job in promoting WCK and now, IMHO, is the time to probe deep into what is what and progress even further.
saying these above, imho, moral issue become imporant , as the spider man movie said " great power comes with great responsibility". to be able to fight is not a bad thing, knowing how to manange oneself to not fight and not provoke fighting to show personal superiority is something needs to look deep into. otherwise , by the name of righteousness serving ego boosting will become a problem.
enjoy
Last edited by Hendrik; 02-25-2007 at 03:35 PM.
Registered User
what do you mean by basic sup yee zhuang methods? Does GM Fu help you to activate your medirians
+++No. I told you about it in one of the last emails i sent you. I have never met Grandmaster. I only know the First set, and so that is Basic. But at least i have that to train as a foundation.
You tread on dangerous ground in terms of words. Who defines what is internal?? Who is the judge? Who chooses the judge ? Who states 8 special meridians = Intenal ? Who states just Du and Ren activated with Dan Tien build up = internal? Who states Internal is about Breath? Who states Internal is about Chi?? Who states its none of these? or all of these?? Who states its about Posture for the internal?? Who is right ? Who is wrong ? And who is set up as Judge?? Many classics.-------B
since you have train in Emei 12 zhuang, if my memory serve, all of your above question had been answered by late Dr. Chow's writing, Dr Chow is the lineage holder of Emei 12 zhuang, . IMHO, I dont see any dangerous ground at all since Dr. Chow writing deal with even advance mind/body/qi activation and handling then these basic of the basic.
+++You miss my point my friend. WHat makes his view correct?? What makes Others views correct?? Who is there to judge who is correct?? Its dangerous because "WOrds" do not convey truth. Only experiance will.
How would one know that 8 special need to be activated, if one hasnt activated them? As they would be just speculating or taking someone elses word for it. So you have done this??....B
Well, there migh be three answer on how would one know. IMHO,
1, there are plenty of books/writing on the 8 special channel which is not popular or known in the west. So, those who could read the classical chinese be able to learn about these stuffs, what it is likely, what it is not likely, and have a clear picture what is happening. ( while we in the west have no clue about them but speculate or and resist the technology with our clueless logical speculation)
+++Again, conflicting information. Many differant classics with many differant views. Which is correct?? Only experiance will work out for one, what is what not "Words" or reading a book.
2, one has a sifu who is experience and know about those stuffs so one could learn about them.
3, one has attained the activation.
+++I agree with both of these. BUt even #2, doesnt do much unless you take what you are taught and actually train it, so you get your own experiance.
So, those who are in the above 3 catagory will know even thier clarity are different. but those have no clue will not know. IMHO.
+++True. And if someone hasnt learned from a master who has experianced the proper training, than passed down the proper training, and than train it, and experiance it,that is the only path to truth, in my opinion, anything else There is nothing but Mind speculation. Anyone can read a book.
as for which one of the above or none of the above is me.
That I hope somedays when you attain your Emei 12 zhuang level 3 (there are many level....) training then do an assesment on me and tell the public my original face.
+++Yes. Many levels. ANd im still working on level 1, so dont hold your breath waiting for me
See, I dont expect you to respect me. I am happy that you see what reality is somedays. may be I am just a buls****er. hahaha
+++I know you dont expect that. I state the fact though as it is true that i have great respect for you. This last ost isnt to be contrary, but to truly question ourselves and be a catalyst for growth. When we stop questioning ourselves and our perceptions, we can fall back into loosing our Clear Vision. I have experianced Completly clear states, but cant maintain it during the day, so i have a superficial development currently. So we must always scrutinize in a postive manner ourselves.
This is a problem. do we know what are those parents are? do we have indepth knowledge via experience? if not then we dont know.
I agree. See above. And my statments are made based on Real time experiance with both as well as 20 years in WCK.
That is what i have been doing for the last 2 years. Experianceing and learning about White Crane and Emie systems and training basics so i can understand the differance between them both and WCK .
m also starting to make regular trips to learn the entire 12 jong system, while im visiting my YKS sifu. ----------------
IMHO, thus, I have heard, years doesnt mean much but STATE of the attainment is the key.
as the WCK saying said " learning has no senior or junior, whoever has mastering the subject is the teacher."
I could learn from you too if your attain STATE is more advance then me
+++I agree. And I wasnt name dropping. I was answering your statement of "Experiance on the parent systems" - That doesnt mean i was implying simply since i go to a school im a master, or have attainment, that is a negative view of my statement, and perhaps you should look into your own mind as to why you assumed that or think something like that when you have never met me nor experianced my level.
I cant judge my own attainment, as im only a student, and not qualified. But simply do my best. I hear many talking about what is what in WCK and yet very few have actually gone and trained. Just like when you are questioned on Knowledge of Shaolin, and Chan, and you mention your former Sifu. Is that name dropping ?? Or simply answering the question.
.
"i see thy nose, but not what dog to feed it to" othello
Registered User
But the question should be also asked of yourself and everyone.
Have you studied both formaly?? Have you learned Emie from Grandmaster Fu or a Student? Or someone who went to a seminar once?? or from a book??
if not, its mind spectulation.------B
Good question and great idea and excellent challenge.
Thank you. I am certainly very happy from your question, that shows me your wings are grow now.
+++A Respectfull Challenge. With Tones of Positive Joy and love. We need to scrutnize our thoughts. Mind Speculation is the root of many many problems in life. Its easy to intellectualize things, but as we know, this isnt truth. Truth is b-Yond. My question comes from if we are going to say WCK is "something" - we need to have supportive real time experiance.
For example - Yik Kam family writings may point to Emie 12 jong. Chows book supports the link. Cho Hong Choi Sifu, may have seen the link. Hendrik may have seen the link. HS than does research, on several diffearnt levels including Kuen Kuit, Medical, and comes to a very likely senario in his mind that WCKs snake ancestor is from Ermie Mountain. BUT - If HS hasnt trained the Emie - Experianced it and gotten some attainment - he has nothing validating the writings of Chow and Yik kam. Than its only speculation and scholastic nonsence. Than has the WCK SLT been trained using the Emie?? What is attained and does it validate the other info??
I dont question the strong link of WCK to Emie Mountain. BUt when we say WCK needs to be practised a certain way or was practised a certain way by the ancestors, we need Experiance to know if thats true. Than once you have attainment, you can help lead others down the proper path.
I dont have an answer currently to how "Internal" WCK was and should be. And still believe in Middle path, which incidently isnt any more generalized than the terms "Internal" and "External" or Soft and Hard - which can be defined 100 differant ways.
am I the person who is first to give out the direction about Emei 12 zhuang and White Crane fusion ... based on my mind speculation?
or you have known them before me? In that case, that is great.
+++LOL. Ok i can stroke your ego, were friends. Yes - You shared the Emie "12 zhaung" White Crane fusion with me. And it was , i would say mind specluation on yours and Cho Hong Choi sifus part. Mind speculation isnt bad unto itself. Its simply not truth. It can be a valid starting point, which than needs to be validated with experianced and training, as many times Mind Speculation crumbles under the weight of truth.
I actually have known about White Crane being the parent of WCK 8 years before i met you -ruffly 13 years ago. As an artist and musician i have always seen and felt the mechanics as well as Asthetic connection. I have also known that WCK contained a Snake Boxing system for just as long, and have had a strong opinion that it was from Emie moutain for at least 5 years, as that is my Systems oral tradition.
I had never heard of the Emie 12 Zhuang prior to you. BUt that changes nothing. Mind speculation is mind speculation. Experiance and attainment are Experiance and attainment.
but you see, I dont go for the path of name droping, State attainment is my preference. One could learn from Miu Shun himself, but if one doestn realized and attain the state. It doesnt mean much at all. IMHHHHO.
+++Name dropping is pointless. But if someone asks - So you know WCK , who did you learn from ? and you say. From Sifu "" . Thats called polite conversation. People also want to know why one is qualified to make statements. ITs normal - in all parts of life, we have to give our referances. True Name Dropping is ego based and more mind speculation
as if I do mind speculation? may be and always.
but it is simple to get to the facts, anyone (you could be one of them since you know emeil 12 zhuang now. ) who has equal or more advance state then me will be able to read my state via my posting . an I welcome for them to critics me based on my writing. I might be full of it. hahahaha.
++++Anyone seeking to interpret ones experiance and attainment via a posting on a forum is someone seeking Ego rubbing from Judging others and is trapped in Mind Speculation mode. Words to not convey the truth of someones thoughts and experiance. They can only point in the general direction. And even than- not always. I also wouldnt say i "Know Emie 12 Posts" I would say " I know Basic Emie training and do my best to train it everyday". I will take the rest of my life to "Know it"
as for writing and instruction, well, how many version of Emei writing do you think there is beside Gm Fu's seminal or book? I happen to have collect a few version from Gm Fu's sifu generations.... which is not translate into englished yet.
+++Ive never thought about it. Training is more important to me currently. The only books i know of are the one from Chow and Fu , as well as Fus chinese material not translated yet.
as formal training, isnt that anyone who formaly study WCK from the ancient tradition by default has the key elements of its parents?
+++Yes IF its from the Ancestral Tradition.
B
"i see thy nose, but not what dog to feed it to" othello
Registered User
+++No. I told you about it in one of the last emails i sent you. I have never met Grandmaster. I only know the First set, and so that is Basic. But at least i have that to train as a foundation.
Thanks for sharing.
----------------
since you have train in Emei 12 zhuang, if my memory serve, all of your above question had been answered by late Dr. Chow's writing, Dr Chow is the lineage holder of Emei 12 zhuang, . IMHO, I dont see any dangerous ground at all since Dr. Chow writing deal with even advance mind/body/qi activation and handling then these basic of the basic.
+++You miss my point my friend. WHat makes his view correct?? What makes Others views correct?? Who is there to judge who is correct?? Its dangerous because "WOrds" do not convey truth. Only experiance will. -------
Great idea.
I certainly miss your point.
IMHO, your point is certainly different then mine, See, I look at myself as just a beginer who isnot in the position to question that to Dr. Chow. I am just in the position of trying to learn as much from him if possible.
----------------------
How would one know that 8 special need to be activated, if one hasnt activated them? As they would be just speculating or taking someone elses word for it. So you have done this??....B
Well, there migh be three answer on how would one know. IMHO,
1, there are plenty of books/writing on the 8 special channel which is not popular or known in the west. So, those who could read the classical chinese be able to learn about these stuffs, what it is likely, what it is not likely, and have a clear picture what is happening. ( while we in the west have no clue about them but speculate or and resist the technology with our clueless logical speculation)
+++Again, conflicting information. Many differant classics with many differant views. Which is correct?? Only experiance will work out for one, what is what not "Words" or reading a book.
That depend on if the person has the state and internal attainment. Nothing is fixed.
-------------------------
2, one has a sifu who is experience and know about those stuffs so one could learn about them.
3, one has attained the activation.
+++I agree with both of these. BUt even #2, doesnt do much unless you take what you are taught and actually train it, so you get your own experiance.
Sure. but then how many really will activate thier medirians?
if all does then how come the art can be lost? hahaha..
I am satisfied if I could see a sifu demo for me.
------------------
as for which one of the above or none of the above is me.
That I hope somedays when you attain your Emei 12 zhuang level 3 (there are many level....) training then do an assesment on me and tell the public my original face.
+++Yes. Many levels. ANd im still working on level 1, so dont hold your breath waiting for me
I have plenty of time. even after I die people still can dig out this forum and critics me. hahahaha
See, I dont expect you to respect me. I am happy that you see what reality is somedays. may be I am just a buls****er. hahaha
+++This last ost isnt to be contrary, but to truly question ourselves and be a catalyst for growth. When we stop questioning ourselves and our perceptions, we can fall back into loosing our Clear Vision. I have experianced Completly clear states, but cant maintain it during the day, so i have a superficial development currently.
So we must always scrutinize in a postive manner ourselves. -----
I like to elaborate some more here.
If I may comment this is a totally wrong attitude and wrong mind set for internal traiining. It doesnt work in real internal art practice. this is a dead trap in internal training and meditation.
IMHO all these above introduce doubt. and once Doubt is introduce into one's mind, one is in trouble especially those who train in advance Internal art. beside the mind has no idea what is going on with the realm of AWARENESS which is beyond it. So, this is a dead trap, trap by one's own mind.
It is said, buddha is here kill the buddha, Demon is here kill the demon with the sword of wisdom. practitional got into trouble alots when one has this type of mind set.
IMHO, until One have attain the state one has NO clear vision at all or to be honest it is a totally blind. Thus, it is said, Sifu is the one who lead one into the door.
with all these seems logical and sound great thinking this is a dead trap.
Get a proper and good sifu and following his instruction, stop asking all the question with mind speculation. Otherwise, dont practice, it is going to do more harm then good with all the smart and logical thinking. IMHO. and that is what I have learn from reading late Dr. Chow's and others ancient writing.
ofcorse people dont have to listern to what I said above but if you are on the path to internal. Choose a proper and good sifu, follow his instruction, stop playing smart a$$ until you have your own state attain then and only then do what you like. otherwise, why create trouble for oneself.
Thus, in going inward, a good sifu is everything.
dont believe me? think. why Christ and all the saint and mystics teachers LOVE and Forgive instead of scrutinize youself?
-----------------------
++++Just like when you are questioned on Knowledge of Shaolin, and Chan, and you mention your former Sifu. Is that name dropping ?? Or simply answering the question.
Oh, I must be a bad influence. hahaha.
OK, I give you an answer.
If I have already have the state then I am answering the question.
If I dont have that state then I am name droping.
is that a good answer? hahaha
so, have you attain the state yet? hahaha
Last edited by Hendrik; 02-25-2007 at 05:27 PM.
Registered User
For example - Yik Kam family writings may point to Emie 12 jong. Chows book supports the link. Cho Hong Choi Sifu, may have seen the link. Hendrik may have seen the link. HS than does research, on several diffearnt levels including Kuen Kuit, Medical, and comes to a very likely senario in his mind that WCKs snake ancestor is from Ermie Mountain.
BUT - If HS hasnt trained the Emie - Experianced it and gotten some attainment - he has nothing validating the writings of Chow and Yik kam.
Than its only speculation and scholastic nonsence. Than has the WCK SLT been trained using the Emie?? What is attained and does it validate the other info?? -------------B
sure you are right.
and sure everything is based on if the respected HS dont know anything, right?
well ask Jim about the scholastic nonsense Hendrik has speculate when he show what hendrik share with him to GM Fu last year. hahaha.
and make sure dont follow hendrik's speculation because what if hendrik is totally wrong and bsing everyone.
follow with your own risk. dont tell me I dont warn you here. hahaha
----------------------------
I dont question the strong link of WCK to Emie Mountain.
BUt when we say WCK needs to be practised a certain way or was practised a certain way by the ancestors, we need Experiance to know if thats true.
Than once you have attainment, you can help lead others down the proper path. -----
sure, you are right logically.
The question is how can one know what is what before having an attainment? I dont question, I go with my sifu's teaching and always posting with Thus, I have heard. hahaha
I dont have an answer currently to how "Internal" WCK was and should be. And still believe in Middle path, which incidently isnt any more generalized than the terms "Internal" and "External" or Soft and Hard - which can be defined 100 differant ways.----- B
What is a middle path? please define in detail until then I have no idea what do you mean.
as for what is Snake powered Crane potential definition with specifics is up in the forum for reading.
As for hard, soft, internal, and external.. well ask Dr. Chow or others who is pioner in the internal art. they set the reference certainly not me.
--------------------------
am I the person who is first to give out the direction about Emei 12 zhuang and White Crane fusion ... based on my mind speculation?
or you have known them before me? In that case, that is great.
+++LOL. Ok i can stroke your ego, were friends. Yes - You shared the Emie "12 zhaung" White Crane fusion with me. And it was , i would say mind specluation on yours and Cho Hong Choi sifus part
You see, I am sure love to have my ego boost, but then why do you have to follow my mind speculation ? I might be totally wrong and misleading.
doesnt make sense to follow some one's speculation right? hahaha
I actually have known about White Crane being the parent of WCK 8 years before i met you -ruffly 13 years ago. As an artist and musician i have always seen and felt the mechanics as well as Asthetic connection. I have also known that WCK contained a Snake Boxing system for just as long, and have had a strong opinion that it was from Emie moutain for at least 5 years, as that is my Systems oral tradition.
I had never heard of the Emie 12 Zhuang prior to you. BUt that changes nothing. Mind speculation is mind speculation. Experiance and attainment are Experiance and attainment. ---------B
as I mention above, follow my mind speculation with your own risk? hahaha
sure, with the same logic as yours, if hendrik
study emei 12 zhuang formally with top name but his dan dien is not heat up and Could not handle/activate the Ren Du Mai, then hendrik has zero right?
to the worse , if hendrik have not experience the basic Qi accumulation which is common to all Chinese internal art, and start to make lots of speculation about others right or wrong based on hendrik's self righteous view, that is even misleading right?
so, here again dont follow hendrik's bad habit. hahaha
but you see, I dont go for the path of name droping, State attainment is my preference. One could learn from Miu Shun himself, but if one doestn realized and attain the state. It doesnt mean much at all. IMHHHHO.
+++Name dropping is pointless. But if someone asks - So you know WCK , who did you learn from ? and you say. From Sifu "" . Thats called polite conversation.
People also want to know why one is qualified to make statements. ITs normal - in all parts of life, we have to give our referances. True Name Dropping is ego based and more mind speculation---
True.
and also Depend on who is the audiance.
----------------------
as if I do mind speculation? may be and always.
but it is simple to get to the facts, anyone (you could be one of them since you know emeil 12 zhuang now. ) who has equal or more advance state then me will be able to read my state via my posting . an I welcome for them to critics me based on my writing. I might be full of it. hahahaha.
++++Anyone seeking to interpret ones experiance and attainment via a posting on a forum is someone seeking Ego rubbing from Judging others and is trapped in Mind Speculation mode. Words to not convey the truth of someones thoughts and experiance. They can only point in the general direction. And even than- not always. I also wouldnt say i "Know Emie 12 Posts" I would say " I know Basic Emie training and do my best to train it everyday". I will take the rest of my life to "Know it"-----
Good point,
we are not directing this post about wCK to "I know" post right?
seriously,
what is the basic Emie training ? if you could start another threat and share with us here who has no chance to learn it, it will be great to open everyone's view that will contribute alots.
Last edited by Hendrik; 02-25-2007 at 07:43 PM.
Banned
We *all* have our own ideas, agendas, etc. And we can all communicate them (some better than others). I don't think this is a "communication" issue.
Unfortunately, some already have made up their minds about how things are in their view of the world. Nothing you can say will change that. I agree with you that there are some ancient truths that are at risk of being lost, but you must share them those who are open to them. As the idiom says "retain when it comes, send away when it goes".
Peace,
Bill
Having an open mind doesn't mean we haven't reached tentative conclusions about things. I don't think Bigfoot exists but if someone were to produce one, my mind would change rather quickly! On the other hand, I also beleive the world isn't flat and I think the evidence for my conclusion is overwhelming.
A very simple fact: Our fighting skill level will depend, regardless of our fighting method or martial art, on our training method. Poor training methods will necessarily result in poor development; superior training methods will result in superior results. So instead of trying to guess or theorize what training methods work or don't work, we can tell very easily by looking to results. How many people in the world practice the TCMAs? Millions? How many that haven't adopted the more modern methods of training (who are traditionally trained) can handle themselves with decent level fighters? None. (If anyone believes otherwise, let's see it). Does this support the view that there are "ancient truths" out there?
What it really comes down to is that there are people, who for various reasons, believe things without evidence or in spite of evidence. How can any of us know whether something is true or not? By looking to the evidence. All I am asking Hendrik for is to provide evidence that his claims have merit -- not stories, not theories, not kuit, not argument, not chinese mindsets, etc. Evidence that his traditional model of training works and has produced significant development in fighting skill. In other words, results. Because if they were true, we would expect to see results. The fact that he can't provide any proof of results despite my repeated requests (if he could, don't you think he would?), indicates that he has no evidence to support his claims.
That was Zen, this is Tao
Of course we do. Just don't bring up the swimming analogy any more and I'll be happy.
No, it does not. However we need to suspend our disbelief long enough to listen, and consider what is being said. Pt's much easier said than done. Too often we tend to be thinking about our counter-position before the person has had a chance to communicate their full position. This seems to be especially true the more we think we "know" someone, since we can jump to conclusions much easier based on our preconceptions.
I guess they've been lost.On the other hand, I also beleive the world isn't flat and I think the evidence for my conclusion is overwhelming.
What I mean is that many so called modern advances have tended to distance us from our connection with our true nature. When I say "ancient truths" I not referring to fighting methods, but rather to the more basic concept of life-force, although there's potentially a connection there as well. The "evidence" seems to indicate that we are all separate entities, that are born, live and die. Is that the full meaning of life? Or is there more to it than that? Are we connected to each other and our environment at a level that is beyond our current ability to perceive? Is there more than we can measure with our scientific devices, or does it simply not exist because we cannot measure it? I'm open to the idea that there is more, while I cannot prove it to you with scientific evidence. I call it faith. You may call it foolishness. I think that in some ways ancient peoples were more connected with their environment. We may have lost this truth, this ability to live in harmony. However, Ancient peoples could also be very brutual and savage, but I'm not sure that we've progressed as much as we'd like to think on that score either.
Unfortunately I have many questions, and very few answers. But I'm sure that you will set me straight - flat earth and Bigfoot not withstanding.
'Talk is cheap because there is an excess of supply over demand'
Banned
It's all about making you happy.Of course we do. Just don't bring up the swimming analogy any more and I'll be happy.
An open mind doesn't mean we "suspend our disbelief" -- if anything we should remain skeptical and disbelieving. That way, we will require evidence to convince us. This is part of critical thinking. As there is no reliable evidence of Bigfoot, I conclude there is no such creature. I remain doubtful and skeptical until someone can provide sufficient reliable evidence to convince me otherwise. And the same is true for any claim.No, it does not. However we need to suspend our disbelief long enough to listen, and consider what is being said. Pt's much easier said than done. Too often we tend to be thinking about our counter-position before the person has had a chance to communicate their full position. This seems to be especially true the more we think we "know" someone, since we can jump to conclusions much easier based on our preconceptions.
Or they never existed in the first place. People love to romaticize the past.I guess they've been lost.
People can believe -- and convince themselves and others -- of all kinds of things on "faith". And your faith can be different than someone else's. But how do we know if any of it is true? Evidence. I'm open to just about any idea -- if someone can back it up with evidence. But I don't leave my mind so open that my sense falls out! When we base our views of the world not on things we know to be true (via evidence) but on ideas we want or hope to be true (faith), we are living in a false fantasy world. If we base important decisions in our lives (medical, health, fighting, etc.) on a fantasy, we will not be making wise decisions (but potentially very harmful ones).What I mean is that many so called modern advances have tended to distance us from our connection with our true nature. When I say "ancient truths" I not referring to fighting methods, but rather to the more basic concept of life-force, although there's potentially a connection there as well. The "evidence" seems to indicate that we are all separate entities, that are born, live and die. Is that the full meaning of life? Or is there more to it than that? Are we connected to each other and our environment at a level that is beyond our current ability to perceive? Is there more than we can measure with our scientific devices, or does it simply not exist because we cannot measure it? I'm open to the idea that there is more, while I cannot prove it to you with scientific evidence. I call it faith. You may call it foolishness.
You can believe whatever you like -- that doesn't mean there is any truth to it. Maybe you don't care if what you believe is true or not. I do. I will agree with you that our modern world has tended to insulate us against the environment to a greater degree (why we are more comfortable today). How this leads to the notion of "ancient truths" escapes me.I think that in some ways ancient peoples were more connected with their environment. We may have lost this truth, this ability to live in harmony. However, Ancient peoples could also be very brutual and savage, but I'm not sure that we've progressed as much as we'd like to think on that score either.
My view is that everyone needs to find their own answers and is responsible for finding their own answers, and that takes work -- hard work. Real answers, true answers, to questions don't come from theories, beliefs, stories, noncombative demos, etc. These are not answers, these are not truths. In fact, they get in the way of real truth and the work needed to find those truths. Yip Man said "go out and test it for yourself, I may be tricking you." Exactly -- let evidence (results) guide you, not beliefs in things you want to be true. Many truths aren't pleasant and comforting. Many truths are counter-intuitive. I talk about sparring/fighting with quality people because that's the only way to *see* the truth for ourselves. By doing that (what we are allegedly training for) we can see if our theories hold water, how effective our training methods really are, etc. If Hendrik's notions produce results, then we should see results; if they don't produce results, then we should expect not to see results. I haven't seen any results.Unfortunately I have many questions, and very few answers. But I'm sure that you will set me straight - flat earth and Bigfoot not withstanding.
I have also read fairly extensively on the subject of motor skill development. There has been tons of research into this field in the past 100 years -- including sport/athletic development. This stuff is available to anyone who puts in the work. We have a much better idea of how the human body learns, develops, etc. than did the "ancient chinese" or the "ancient europeans" for that matter. Those finding do not support Hendrik's views. But that's not surprising since Hendrik's views are based on a worldview that is essentally false.
So, while Hendrik can go on expounding on his theories and stories, the fact is that he can provide no evidence to support them (can't show they really work) and that those theories are contradicted by scientific research. In that light, how open do you think I should be to his theories?
Registered User
So, while Hendrik can go on expounding on his theories and stories, the fact is that he can provide no evidence to support them (can't show they really work) and that those theories are contradicted by scientific research. In that light, how open do you think I should be to his theories?------
Here is the third time I CHALLENGE YOU
at ANY TIME ANY PLACE
to bring your MMA candidate or ANY ONE IN WCK who is neutral, Bring your team of Scientist, Bring your Biofeedback machine, and I coach the candidate with the activation of DU and REN Mai, Ancient Chinese method, and then Let the Scientist taking data with the Biofeedback Machine and See what is improve what is not. What is better Handle what is not?
AND Ofcorse you need to sign NDA because technology is not free.
See, Terence, Talk is cheap and making claim is also cheap when it become a tool for shake of arguement and debating in a word only realm where no REALITY connected to it.
In fact, I dont even care for if it is ancient or chinese or modern or name droping. That is the reason I propose to use MODERN TECHNOLOGY to take a measurable, observable data.
Talk is Cheap without MEASURABLE DATA.
If you intend to continous to make claims. Make sure you have measureable DATA before you even speak.
Registered User
Hendrik.....
Here's a challenge I am posing on YOU.
Couch a fighter to a championship with your methods
The "measurable data" you are refering to is measured everyday in the ring, cage, Law Enforcement, security and more. They are actually OUT IN THE FIELD testing this stuff in real time. Not hooking up to "modern technology" like that friggen retarded show "Fight Science" and seeing who has the stronger kick, punch or whatever. Who do they get to represent Kung Fu????? a Wushu forms champion.... OH.... MY..... LORD! Yeah.... they're biasedSee, Terence, Talk is cheap and making claim is also cheap when it become a tool for shake of arguement and debating in a word only realm where no REALITY connected to it.
In fact, I dont even care for if it is ancient or chinese or modern or name droping. That is the reason I propose to use MODERN TECHNOLOGY to take a measurable, observable data.
Talk is Cheap without MEASURABLE DATA.
If you intend to continous to make claims. Make sure you have measureable DATA before you even speak.Might as well get a Ballet dancer.
Like one VERY wise Sifu said to me once..... "People talk talk talk.... the one still standing says anything he wants."
Anthony Iglesias
www.syracusemartialarts.com
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