Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Leto]

MK, yes, all that stuff in 3 months. from white to brown. The test is only based on memorization of material, and even then they give help sometimes. Another reason I decided to take a break from it. While I had everything memorized and could perform it quite well, there was very little drilling of applications from the form, or "breaking it down". Knowing how to use the material is not a part of any test. And I saw too many people test who barely had it memorized, couldn't perform the techniques properly, and still pass. The only way to fail a test was to refuse to even try to do the techniques. Too many brown belts barely knew their material, and were relearning the short forms during the warm up of brown belt class. Too many black belts barely remember their brown belt forms, and forget things. It's sad when the brown belts who just learned their form are showing a black belt how to do it because he forgot, and hasn't practiced it in a year (I've seen this happen more than once). I know all this doesn't sound good, and I'm not trying to make people think that there's no merit to the material or the system, because there is. Every school is run a little differently, it's really a "get out of it what you put into it" thing. I put in effort almost every waking moment to working on my material, in one form or another, for about three years (That's not an exaggeration). I now have a base of material which has great depth of application, which I have been discovering more being on my own than I had the opportunity to being at the school where things had to be conducted in a certain way. It seems kind of sad, but even this type of school has its purpose for some people. It's sort of like a library. If you don't know how to read yet, a library doesn't do you much good, because you can really only appreciate the pictures in the books. But when you know how to read, and are already a student of learning, the library is an amazing place where you can find out about almost anything you want. You need a method to help you understand how to apply the knowledge in all those books, the library itself can't do that.
From my experience, CSC doesn't have that method, you'd need to pick it up somewhere else. maybe it gets introduced after many years of staying there...like only the trusted disciples who have proved themselves loyal get initiated into the "real" learning...but in my opinion that should be the foundation for everyone, not the "advanced" material for private classes. But I am thankful that I was able to see so many different forms and styles in my short time there.

[Leto]

It's amazing you guys had no idea that this is how it was. SD in the east must be very different. In my original style, there would be mandatory six months in between testing (there weren't quite as many ranks, but still, it took at least four or five years to get to first black...and some people consider that way too fast!) It means more when you've put more time into it. Sometimes this sort of system feels like it's holding you back, when you feel you have learned your stuff and can do it in your sleep, and want to learn something new. I think a balance is needed...not to hold someone back who has the ability to move on, but not to allow someone to pass by who doesn't have a firm grasp of the material. Really, I wish we could do away with the whole "rank" thing, and teach based on individual needs and abilities. Of course, this is hard to do with a large group of students at once.

[brucereiter]

How many ranks are we talking here?

White to Yellow
Yellow to Blue
Blue to Green
Green to Brown

?

You mean to say you guys are racking up 4 ranks in 3 months???!?

And that includes

• Short Kata 1-30
• One Step Sparring 1-9
• Bo Techniques (4 spins)
• Hand to Hand Techniques
• Numchaku Techniques 1-12
• 4-8 Bo
• Sparring Techniques 1-20
• Big Bird Spreads its Wings
• Fist of the Lo Han
• Short Stick of the Northern Beggar
• Four Door Way Break
• Flying Tiger Came Out of the Cave

5 long forms, plus a sh1t load of smaller forms...in 3 months?

i dont know about the "external" program but below is the atl internal program.

Level One: Requirement
Yang 64 Tai Chi Chuan
49 Postures-I Chin Ching
Gold Sash Two Sections of Yang 64
Blue Sash Four Sections of Yang 64
Green Sash Entire Yang 64 Form

Level Two: 1st, 2nd, 3rd Brown to 1st Black Sash Time Line / Requirement
Classical Pa Kua Chang (Sections 1-4) 3 Months
Classical Pa Kua Chang (Sections 5-8) 4 Months
Chen 18 Move Modified Form 2 Months
Ho Tien Chi Breathing 2 Months
Yin Dagger 2 Months
Yang Dagger 2 Months
Yeh Fay Spa Kwan 2 Months


all of the above material is needed to test for 1st Black Sash in the ga csc.
it takes a minimum of 23 months. most people take 2 1/2 - 3 years to first black.

Level Three: 1 Black to 2 Black Sash Time Line
Hsing-I Five Roads 2 Months
Hsing-I Linkage Form 2 Months
Tai Chi 64 Appl & Push Hands – 1/2 1 Month
Five Animal Dead Training 3 Months
Hsing-I Animals 1-6 2 Months
Five Animal Live Training 3 Months
Hsing-I Animals 7-12 2 Months
Tai Chi 64 Appl & Push Hands (2/2) 1 Month
Tai Chi Sword 18 move Form 2 Months
Tai Chi 24 Combination Form 3 Months

it take a minimum of 22 months from first to 2nd black sash.

(i reached 2nd degree black sash rank
earned after several year of practice
(aproximately 4000 hours between
aug 8, 1997 and september 9 2005, about 8 years at a minimum of 500 hours per year)

i might test for 3rd black in september 07 as a now have all of the material ... :-)

the key is a organized practice schedule :-)
internal arts practice schedule 2007 each day is a minimum of 1 hour and often 4 hours, not including time in class ...

Mon
I chin ching #1-12
yang 64 tai chi chuan
24 tai chi chuan
chen 83 tai chi chuan xin jia
yang 38 broad sword
pakua original + 8 animal

Tue
I chin ching #13-18
yang 64 tai chi chuan
chen 18
chen 83 tai chi chuan xin jia
chen tai chi 32 straight sword
hsing-I 5 roads/linkage/12 animals

Wed
I chin ching #19-27
yang 64 tai chi chuan
5 animal dead/live
chen 83 tai chi chuan xin jia
18 sword
pakua original + 8 animal

Thu
I chin ching #28-33
yang 64 tai chi chuan
yueh fei spa kwan
chen 83 tai chi chuan xin jia
chen iron fan
hsing-I 5 roads/linkage/12 animals

Fri
I chin ching #34-41
yang 64 tai chi chuan
ho tien chi breathing
chen 83 tai chi chuan xin jia
yin yang dagger
pakua original + 8 animal

Sat
I chin ching #42-49
yang 64 tai chi chuan
yang 38 broad sword
chen 83 tai chi chuan xin jia
yueh fei spa kwan
hsing-I 5 roads/linkage/12 animals
ho tien chi breathing/shein tien chi

best,

bruce

[KungFu Student]

I agree. Three months is entirely too short of a time for someone to understand all that material. It has taken me over a year to get to third brown, and that is going to class 5 to 6 days a week, and practicing at home. We have a minimum of three months between belt tests from white to brown, then six months for 3rd-1st brown, and 2 years up at black. They have in the past reduced the time somewhat, but in unusual situations. It is sad to think that they place more importance on the color of their belt then the quality of their skill. But I am sure that the CSC does not corner the market on this practice.

[ZhuFu]

If this is true, then I think this is one of the reasons our stuff is criticized and why it looks like ass on the internet!

It all boils down to people. There are lots of instructors and since they are all human as well, they are subject to different standards than others, as well as to all the other problems humans have. A question comes to mind, which SD student would be well to represent the art? Or how about which instructor?
I have seen tests where the entire panel did not pass the student, and the head master on the test passed them any way to the shock of the panel. When I asked, they told me "He should know he did poorly and he will most likely quit anyway".. From my perception of the csc-west is that test fee's outweigh what it done on a test in many cases; however this is not all the csc's, its really dependent on what instructor you talk too.
I heard a rumor once that a person went from White to 3rd Brown in 3 weeks in Denver. But since it was a rumor I take it with a grain of salt as they say.
When this kind of stuff is said it makes the entire art look bad, personally I think that its really down to the individual instructors more than the art in how it is represented

[BM2]

I actually laughed when I read how fast you could get your brown belt. I think about 3 months is quick enough for your first belt.
What others do does not effect me in the least. Also we may take ourselves too seriously at times. It seems to be more important how many stripes or diamonds we have on our belts and the attention from others that it receives that is important.
I saw my bjj instructor cry when he got his black belt. I wonder if any 15 month bb cried when he received his bb but he had about ten years in it too.
It took me a little over three years to get my SD bb and that was when there were only the Golden Tiger, sai and sword for each degree of brown. My instructor just thought it wasn't right to have a bb before at least three years.

[NastyHaggis]

Testing fees...yikes. When I managed a TaeKwonDo school back in the day we had to do that to keep the doors open. However, one of the reasons I quit was because I saw WAY too many people testing when they shouldn't have, and were still passed. There was just too much dependence on the money coming in from testings, and the owner/instructors weren't being greedy, they literally needed that money to keep the doors open.

Thankfully, we don't have testing fees at our school, and I really think that takes the emphasis off of the whole "hurry up and test" thing.

On a side note, after 8 years of marriage, our first baby is due on the 28th! Yippee! I guess I'll be doing tai chi with the child in one of those little backpack baby carriers. It'll make me go REALLY slow.

[BoulderDawg]

Testing fees are a big problem. I don't believe there should be a fee to test. This would alleviate pressure on everyone.

Also one thing that bothered me as a lower belt was the constant pressure by one of the Masters to test:

"Why haven't you tested yet?'

"We need to sign you up for testing?"

Here's the clipboard put your name on it".........

They know as well as I that a large percentage of students drop out after several months. This pressure gives the apperance they are trying to squeeze every penny out of you before you quit.

[kwaichang]

Hey Nasty, when I was in Austin I taught the Mantis class with my son strapped to my chest , he loved it he is 2 now and knows his snake, Leopard and Mantis hand positions along with dragon fist and Tiger Hand. It is great you will love it. KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

MK, yes, all that stuff in 3 months. from white to brown. The test is only based on memorization of material, and even then they give help sometimes. Another reason I decided to take a break from it. While I had everything memorized and could perform it quite well, there was very little drilling of applications from the form, or "breaking it down".

Had that same issue, but I found people in the school and school system who had the drive that I did, and have greatly benefited from this. SDiscool and Crushingfist---you'll see me turn up intermittently....as my schedule has mellowed out into something that approaches "sanity".


Knowing how to use the material is not a part of any test.

Ah, but it is a test of yourself and your dedication. If you're willing to look and pose the questions, there are answers. I've seen this happen firsthand of late. Pickin' up apps left and right, and "discovering" (they're already there) new ones..... I just had to ask the right people....i.e. the people in it for the same reasons I am. I can't ask a student in it for PT the apps for every form. He or she might never have cared to learn and retain that information. Obviously, I just have to ask the right people. The people I look at and say.......****.....that dude's on another level. That's where I want to get to. Sure enough, those are the guys that clean up in sparring.

It's sort of like a library. If you don't know how to read yet, a library doesn't do you much good, because you can really only appreciate the pictures in the books. But when you know how to read, and are already a student of learning, the library is an amazing place where you can find out about almost anything you want. You need a method to help you understand how to apply the knowledge in all those books, the library itself can't do that.

This is the best metaphor for SD training that I have ever come across. Again, not the best way to train all students, but the best way for the right kinds of students.

From my experience, CSC doesn't have that method, you'd need to pick it up somewhere else.

Thought so too, recently. Finding out I was wrong. I've learned that I just have to ask more questions. I think for a while I was a little embarassed to ask questions, b/c I didn't want to make it look like the teacher glossed something over that was really important. But if they do, you just have to question step-by-step, and the answer will be there. In short, you have to be a bit of a pest.....hey, can you show me this? Hey, what about that? Are we there yet?

Still, it does do a world of good to look around a bit.....at least, it did for me.

Cool, man. Where'd you train, BTW?

[Shaolin Wookie]

But I am sure that the CSC does not corner the market on this practice.

I can tell you firsthand, from my recent travels, that I know this to be true. You'd be surprised how many "traditional schools" corner that market.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I saw my bjj instructor cry when he got his black belt. I wonder if any 15 month bb cried when he received his bb but he had about ten years in it too.
.

That's because there's no crying in kung fu........

[Shaolin Wookie]

Testing fees are a big problem. I don't believe there should be a fee to test. This would alleviate pressure on everyone.

Also one thing that bothered me as a lower belt was the constant pressure by one of the Masters to test:

"Why haven't you tested yet?'

"We need to sign you up for testing?"

Here's the clipboard put your name on it".........

They know as well as I that a large percentage of students drop out after several months. This pressure gives the apperance they are trying to squeeze every penny out of you before you quit.

Wow, I've never really seen that kind of pressure. There is a peer pressure....though.....kind of like---hey man, you're good enough to jump up to the next level.....why you wanna review for that long? From non-instructors, that is. Some instructors take pride in their students, which is a good thing. It might sway their judgment, though, to push them towards advancement. Although I loathe the testing fees as well, as I'm not rich, I've never once gotten the impression that I'm being screwed over by the business side of MA....although i did get that from the BJJ school I attended (still getting calls from them every three days, despite the fact I keep telling them I'm not interested......what's with that?), and the WC school. The others were really laid back---they put out their wares, said: "Look around, see if this is a place for you. If not, good luck." When I signed up with CSC, that's the pitch I got. They took pride in what they did on a daily basis, put it out for public review, and basically left the decision up to you without sales pitches every class session.

But since I'm not 13, peer pressure means **** to me. I feel I'm making significant progress in my studies right now, after this long period of stasis that put me into a funk. I'm really learning how to move in my forms, and put 'em to work. If you've ever gotten that feeling, you might know what I'm talking about.

[brucereiter]

In short, you have to be a bit of a pest.....hey, can you show me this? Hey, what about that? Are we there yet?

true true! sr master gary makes fun of me because i ask and have always asked a lot of questions lol but after a while i think he thought it was good because he can see improvement in my skills and i have learned to ask questions based on where i am at in my training. "ask a big question, get a big answer" :-)

one thing to remember when asking questions is to ask questions related to what you are already at in your training ...

best,

bruce

[B-Rad]

What do you guys think of the belt system? Do you find it a pain, or do you feel it helps your training in any way? Or do you just not care one way or the other?