(Youtube) Variations in Siu Lum Tao, what gives?

[Tom Kagan]

Check around some more - you'll proably find other SLT/SNT's which are different again. I've seen at least 3 versions just in my own lineage, and not just minor tweaks either.

You may think that they are different as apples and oranges, but all I see are fruit.

If I wish to create dualities where I feel none exist, then yes, I'd agree with you. However, as of yet, the differences to me are superficial differences in flair, choreography, sequencing, level of practitioner, and choice of emphasis.

In other words, I see the 'differences' as inconsequential. Interestingly to me, that includes the differences between TWC SNT and everyone else they insist are 'modified'. (Boy, if that doesn't get Victor going, I'll have to give him big Kudos for figuring out how to relax once in a while. )

Truth be told, without substantial and consistent documented evidence of a significant result difference between one approach and the other using independently verifiable and objective criteria, it's all the same.


Heck, most of the time, I don't care to make distinctions between "good" Muay Thai's approach and "good" Ving Tsun's. (!) So, why would I make the effort for a few "OMG they are totally different therefore they suck ass" family squabbles?

[Li Ma-Keh]

Right Tom, I've seen many different versions of Siu Lum Dao/Sil Lim do,..( I learned a version of it from asst. Coach Jimmy Yee in Chicagos' Chinatown at their 'Athletic Club'. That school was a shoot-off of Master A, Fongs' school in New York, but the form is different?),...just like All of the 'fiddleing' with the 'Mook Yan Jong' form! Either the 108-step, or the 116-step or Completely different variations,...all in all', most of them are viable' and valuable, no matter how 'different' or non-traditional in someones' view they might be,...lol'. It is ALWAYS up to the teacher' as to what he or she passes on to the students,...and , of course over the centuries, it has become the Many styles and cross-styles of martial-movement. Li Ma-Keh

[Vajramusti]

,..( I learned a version of it from asst. Coach Jimmy Yee in Chicagos' Chinatown at their 'Athletic Club'. That school was a shoot-off of Master A, Fongs' school in New York, but the form is different?),...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The only school Augustine Fong has -is in Tucson Arizona. For wing chun instructors affiliated with him see the list at:

http://www.fongswingchun.com/school.php


No criticism of your slt- which I havent seen , is intended.

with good wishes for your wing chun.

joy chaudhuri

[Li Ma-Keh]

That's what I was told',..and I thought it was weird that the form was different than Master Fongs'. This was in 1978 when I had learned it. They didn't advertise their Wing-Chun style as Master Fongs',..I was told that one of the instructors had originally taken lessons from him,...? So, thanks for the input. Li Ma-Keh.

[Wu Wei Wu]

re: differences in SLT.

we all speak the same language. however, subtle differences arise because of accents, tones and inflections.

it is far more important to ensure that we are effective communicators than examining subtle differences between us.

to test our effectiveness we must convey messages in the most efficient manner, to those who speak different languages.

`When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.'

`The question is,' said Alice, `whether you can make words mean so many different things.'

`The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, `which is to be master -- that's all.'

[anerlich]

You may think that they are different as apples and oranges, but all I see are fruit.

I didn't say they were so different they couldn't be put in the same class. But they have different amounts of footwork, different "sizes" of movements, and different emphases. Most people would see differences ... and an overall similarity. Like the way an apple is like and not like an orange.

If I wish to create dualities where I feel none exist, then yes, I'd agree with you. However, as of yet, the differences to me are superficial differences in flair, choreography, sequencing, level of practitioner, and choice of emphasis.

One of the finest martial artists I have ever met told me that one of the attributes of understanding what you are doing in an MA is the ability to appreciate fine distinctions.

But yes, also to notice the similarities and how one thing is related to another.

In other words, I see the 'differences' as inconsequential.

More power to ya. I disagree, but that's OK with me if it is with you.

Interestingly to me, that includes the differences between TWC SNT and everyone else they insist are 'modified'. (Boy, if that doesn't get Victor going, I'll have to give him big Kudos for figuring out how to relax once in a while. )

I personally don't see differences anywhere near as fundamental as those touted by 70s/80s TWC marketing. I hope your post had more to it than just trying to push other people's buttons. I took TWC because I had easy access to a good instructor of it ... I might just as easily have ended up doing CLF or something totally different. I didn't take it because it was marketed as the most bada$$ style on the planet. All WC is modified ... it began with the inclusion of the pole, and arguably before that.

Truth be told, without substantial and consistent documented evidence of a significant result difference between one approach and the other using independently verifiable and objective criteria, it's all the same.

I think an uneducated person could see the differences I am talking about in my versions of SLT, all three of which you are unlikely to have seen (maybe you would have seen two of them), without any prompting.

Their relevance in a larger sphere is probably close to zero, but then that's probably true of this forum as a whole as well.

Heck, most of the time, I don't care to make distinctions between "good" Muay Thai's approach and "good" Ving Tsun's. (!) So, why would I make the effort for a few "OMG they are totally different therefore they suck ass" family squabbles?

I agree with you, though I'd be worried if you didn't think it was worth distinguishing good MA from bad MA.

I never brought up family squabbles, I'm talking about form differences within my own "family" (a term I dislike in relation to MA). Internicine WC squabbles faded into irrelevance with the resergence of sportfighting in the 90s IMO. Which is not to say that arguing about them isn't good for a laugh every now and then, if they have little other merit.

[Tom Kagan]

I agree with you, though I'd be worried if you didn't think it was worth distinguishing good MA from bad MA.

LOL!

Did you know I am a moderator of the investigations sub-forum at Bullshido and also one of the harshest critics against many of the __ng __un practitioners who seem to want to post over there? The dearth of self-exploration, cross checking, and critical thinking combined with poorly thought out arguments, unsubstantiated claims, and logical fallacies in regards to what that 'chunner' is supposedly learning and shares/defends/ingratiates over there never ceases to impress me.

[couch]

LOL!

Did you know I am a moderator of the investigations sub-forum at Bullshido and also one of the harshest critics against many of the __ng __un practitioners who seem to want to post over there? The dearth of self-exploration, cross checking, and critical thinking combined with poorly thought out arguments, unsubstantiated claims, and logical fallacies in regards to what that 'chunner' is supposedly learning and shares/defends/ingratiates over there never ceases to impress me.

With this new background information on you Tom, your posts make more sense to me! *laugh*

All the best,
Kenton Sefcik

[anerlich]

Did you know I am a moderator of the investigations sub-forum at Bullshido

A MODERATOR? Of ... the investigations SUB-forum? Wow, I didn't know that.

Do they give you a badge or a gi patch or something?

You aren't trying on an appeal to your own authority now, are you Tom? That'd be pretty lame.

Anyhow, I'll take a peek over there some time - you may even impress me

[Ultimatewingchun]

"In other words, I see the 'differences' as inconsequential. Interestingly to me, that includes the differences between TWC SNT and everyone else they insist are 'modified'. (Boy, if that doesn't get Victor going, I'll have to give him big Kudos for figuring out how to relax once in a while. )" (Tom Kagan)


***ACTUALLY, Tom...these days I prefer to look upon non-TWC Yip Man lineage wing chun as COM wing chun. (Center Of Mass...as in...the main stratgey is to always attack the opponent's center of mass).

But if you prefer to still go with "modified" - then go ahead.

There are NUMEROUS differences in the TWC SLT when compared to COM SLT....many of which are much more than "superficial".

Here, try this one on for size: the three fuk saos come out on 3 different "centerlines" within the TWC SLT (see the "Lost Footage" video, Andrew, if you don't already know what I mean - although I suspect you do).

The first corresponds to the middle-of-the-body vertical centerline....the second corresponds to the chest/pectoral area....the third to the shoulder/armpit area.

The explanation for which....I'll let you figure out, Tom.

[Liddel]

EDIT.... the differences to me are superficial differences in flair, choreography, sequencing, level of practitioner, and choice of emphasis.
In other words, I see the 'differences' as inconsequential.

Tom, ive come across many forms of other schools that i think would fall into this category of differences.
However IME the majority of other forms ive seen are more often than not, so different to my own VT (or parts thereof) that the most important part is completely different..... the USE.

As long as an individual is happy and content in the way in which he/she has been taught to apply the actions from the forms, said individual should not care about others 'differnces', which is how i feel. If they do - they are not confident with what they have IMO.

The line between the differences for me, lies between form and function

[Tom Kagan]

A MODERATOR? Of ... the investigations SUB-forum? Wow, I didn't know that.

Do they give you a badge or a gi patch or something?

You aren't trying on an appeal to your own authority now, are you Tom? That'd be pretty lame.

Anyhow, I'll take a peek over there some time - you may even impress me

Ah... I'm not sure if I was clear: 'sub' as in 'subordinate', not 'submissions' (Any other aspects of me, real or perceived, aren't really relevant here. )


I certainly wouldn't put it past me to be lame, especially in the name of self-deprecating humor. But, I'm not pulling an 'authority appeal' (at least, in this case ). I said my piece, you gave a rebuttal. These mutual exchanges of dialogue/argument are what appeal to me. I just thought you might be amused, given your last thoughts, by not only what I support, but actively contribute my time to.

Bullshido is a rip roaring place, for sure. It's a thoroughly obnoxious, locker room "snap fest" of a place. Overall, it is not very reassuring - no hugs, no tea, very little 'attaboy' mutual butt-scratching, and a rather low signal to noise ratio. You need a thick hide to enjoy it there. But, for those who prefer their MA through the dark lens - the murky, creepy, sink or swim one - that place is absolute bliss. For those who want the rose colored lens, there are other places - like right here. (I'm here, too ).

I was drafted by the staff over there specifically to cull out more of the "LOL! Kung Fu" nutriders which poop all over in the middle of serious 'surgical dissections' of possible scam-artists and other martial silliness. There are other 'rip-to-shreds' comedy sub-forums for people to post in over there... sometimes on the exact same targets (and I'm ripping away with glee right in the muck of that, also ).

I feel if anyone ever went through my posts here all the way back throughout my posting history, it would be clear I actually like to examine differences even if for no other reason to do so is to present from an alternate point of view than most. It gets my creative juices going. And, I'd like to think (delude myself) a little bit of how I choose to discuss issues gets other peoples' creative juices going on here too.

BTW, no patches for me. I like'em crisp and clear. I don't even like subtle logos. (I cut them out of almost all my clothes.) If you venture into the 'pimp my gi' gallery over there, you'll come across a few of my own contributions I found of that kind of "F1 driver/billboard/this space for rent" style of martial silliness.

[Li Ma-Keh]

'please help',...I was wondering if Master Fong or any of his students did any seminars in New York during the 70s'? I would hate to think that Si-Fu Yee was 'making-up' stuff',...but, I know things like that happen,..lol'. I've been on youtube.com the last 24hrs.',(on & off,..lol), trying to find a connection , or closer version of SLD to the one I was taught, and I've found several that are close,..some are in a slightly different order, some leave out/add different hand positions, I even found one version that opens it's stance beginning like a Choy-Lay-Fut/Hung-Gar,(double standing-sweep), instead of the 'common' heel-toe shift-step. My wife and I were in Chicago about six yrs. ago,..I was going to show her the up-stairs school where we trained,..and of-course , the whole row of buildings had been torn down since the 70s' and replaced with a 'modern' Asian MALL kinda' complex,..LOL'! Thanks,Li Ma-Keh

[Ultimatewingchun]

Is this another case of "I see the differences as inconsequential"?

I'm waiting, Tom...

and yes, I'm waiting patiently.

[Vajramusti]

Mr. Chaudhuri,...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

'please help',...I was wondering if Master Fong or any of his students did any seminars in New York during the 70s'? I would hate to think that Si-Fu Yee was 'making-up' stuff',...but, I know things like that happen,..lol'. I've been on youtube.com the last 24hrs.',(on & off,..lol), trying to find a connection , or closer version of SLD to the one I was taught, and I've found several that are close,..some are in a slightly different order, some leave out/add different hand positions, I even found one version that opens it's stance beginning like a Choy-Lay-Fut/Hung-Gar,(double standing-sweep), instead of the 'common' heel-toe shift-step. My wife and I were in Chicago about six yrs. ago,..I was going to show her the up-stairs school where we trained,..and of-course , the whole row of buildings had been torn down since the 70s' and replaced with a 'modern' Asian MALL kinda' complex,..LOL'! Thanks,Li Ma-Keh
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Mr.Li mah-Keh- I can try. I am not much into posting these days... but I re-logged to anwer your post. In learning a style or a form- the devil is in the details as they say. I dont think I know Mr.Yee. Ed de la Cruz of Windy City Wing chun who is probably freezing in Chicago is also with the Fong Federation and perhaps can help you if you are in Chicago.
Master Fong did doa seminar in NYC-I forget whether it was in the late 70s or early 80s.But to my knowledge he has only two people in NY who is associated with him(see his website)...New York
Chun Hay Liu
Jose Constanzo .
Per his own statement on his website- Master Fong does not automatically regard
seminar attendance as sufficient for studentship. I cannot comment on what you learned without seeing it in person or atleast in a video.
I am trying to be as helpful as I know how under the circumstances, in responding to your question.
Regards, Joy Chaudhuri