Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Baqualin]

Do you know what my first reaction to the Su Kong story was?

I was entertained. It made for a good story.

Does it have to be true? Well, does the Triad story have to be true for other lineages? Does CLF's history have to be true?

Nope. It just has to gel with the Martial Art's students, and give them a model to work after---hence, a master with unbelievable skill, achieved with what? Kung-fu....hard work. Note--nobody ever became a better martial artist by believing in a story. But it might have entertained him for a good 15 minutes.

I'm starting to think a little like Gene regarding the SD lineage. I think the hairy monk tale is one of the best stories it has, to be honest. Does it have to be true? Nope.

Who knows, maybe Su Kong stumbled, or a drop of water fell from the ceiling, and he looked up for a second and saw the guy, then started screaming: "Ahhhhhhhh!" And then threw a knife at the guy. Or maybe the guy cut the cheese, thereby revealing his position.

Only a putz takes legend as fact. Here's a good, relevant example: At the battle of Thermopylae, who actually believes 300 Spartans took on several million Persians?

Answer: very few......there were probably a couple hundred thousand Spartans in the least.....but it makes for a really cool story, doesn't it?

**If I recall correctly, I believe someone much wiser than myself mentioned this when he talked with me regarding SD's history.....(so I don't think that's an original Wookie comparison).**

NICE
BQ

[kwaichang]

Greeks Fight the Immortals:
On the third day, Leonidas led his 300 Spartan hoplites (elite troops selected because they had living sons back home) plus the allied Thespians and Thebans against Xerxes and his army of "10,000 Immortals." The Spartan-led forces fought this unstoppable Persian force to their deaths in order to block the pass long enough to keep Xerxes and his army occupied while the rest of the Greek army escaped.

Here you BTW there were 700 volunteers. So yes i do believe KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

Are you quoting Herodotus on that? From what I remember, he had much larger figures......

The moral of the story is this: With superior ground and tactical position, a smaller force can fend off a larger one, if they have the courage to stand and fight.

Plus, it was good PR for the oft-scorned Spartans.....

Herodotus himself (The Father of History) once said something to the gist of: "I am not obliged to record the truth of history, such as this is never consensus." And he backs it up by sometimes citing several versions of a story.

Historians of the new mould began with Thucydides, who took varying accounts, blended them together, cut off the excess with Occam's razor, and presented the product as historical truth. Only, it was the truth as he saw it.....not necessarily historical truth. And he doesn't always cite his sources. That's a big no-no nowadays.

BTW....if anyone ever intends to read Thucydides (I give him some much-warranted post-mortem publicity on this forum), order the translation by Thomas Hobbes. Believe me, it's fantastic.

[kwaichang]

Thanks SW I like being proven right by those I do not know. I say SKTJ heard 13 breathing any takers after the video I witnessed KC

[kungfujunky]

kc great clip!

honestly after seeing that how can you doubt?

there are similar stories of ninjas doing amazing things with their sensory perceptions.

it is just a matter of focus and practice

[kwaichang]

Hey KFJ I didnt post it it was SW

[kungfujunky]

Hey KFJ I didnt post it it was SW

your right my mistake!

thx sw

[kungfujunky]

I don't see any evidence for Su Kong's existence let alone such feats. The reasons why I don't believe the Su Kong story are as follows.
A) The Five Elders story is echoed by many lineages and is present all over Chinese folklore. If the Su Kong story were true, wouldn't it be well known within the Mo Lum and folklore? But it isn't, the Five Elders are though. The Su Kong story also contradicts the Five Elders story. What does that say?

that doesnt make it false. many styles dont echo that story. does that make them inherintly false just because? that is a loose argument at best


B) Su Kong's dates don't match with those of Southern Shaolin history.

of known recorded shaolin history. not more than 10-15 years ago southern shaolin temples were considered a fairy tale and yet they have found a number of them


C) I don’t think it's possible to learn 900 forms well in one lifetime.

thats your opinion of course. but has no bearing on the overall point of contention


D) SD claims a lot of styles and says that they descend from the Shaolin Temple. In lineages recognized by the Mo Lum, many of the listed styles do trace back to the Shaolin Temple but they evolved over time. Also, many of the styles SD lists aren't even Shaolin. Not to mention, you’d have to be connected to certain recognized lineages that SD isn’t in order to really have certain styles.

what styles are you referring to and hundreds of years ago there very well could have been a connection. so again this is not a solid point


E) I hear that funky lineage stories are really common in Indonesian martial arts.

and i hear there are martians on mars. while that very well may be true it is not relevant.



it has been said time and again that sd had to adapt and add new things to it to stay hidden from persecution while in indonesia.

from what i have seen all of those newer trappings are shown before first black.

after that we learn traditional shaolin kung fu styles.

[kwaichang]

History is just that HIS STORY. History is warped to fit the purpose of the teller. Perhaps the 5 elders story is off a little, anyway I have trained in SD for 15 years and have learned over 100 forms if my count is correct. So I think 900 in a life time is possible with the right effort. "funky" Lineage stories are also prevelant in Japanese English and Chinese histories as well. This as you say has no Logic as to why you dont believe the history of SD.

I will tell you why I do believe and it is simple. I have heard GMT tell the story of SD many times and I have heard the story from those he told. If it is a lie then the story would change as we all know a story that is not true tends to change over time. And since no one can disprove it it is true in my opinion. Also it is well known that the Chinese would often kill infants that were undesirable , the greeks and spartains and Japanese as well so why should they talk of it ??? KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

I finally watched the link I posted on the blind guys and echol to verify it.

Surprise, surprise, it wasn't any of the ones I'd seen before. I've seen even more impressive feats---blind guys navigating with echol on noisy city streets and busy intersections.

Just goes to show there are people doing what SKTJ is purported to having done on an everyday basis.

[The Willow Sword]

You know this is a broken record guys. It is uncanny how one thread in a whole plethera and multitude of forums can be so redundant to the point of ridiculous and comical. I am amazed at it all really. Still though, no answers worth giving ole willow sword here from the Man himself( i guess letters do not arrive at their destinations in tact, or they are disregarded) No meetings this Feb ever took place to ask the questions and get answers. Alot of talk and posturing, but no real actions taken.

Oh well, it is almost davinci code'ish in that the Truth could shock the very foundation of the shaolin-do world,LOL The Kung FU world at that

i am envisioning an Old Kwaichang kneeling before an elaborately created pyramid with the sarcophagus of Sukong himself underneath in the year 2045.



Peace and prosperity to you all ,,TWS.

[BoulderDawg]

i am envisioning an Old Kwaichang kneeling before an elaborately created pyramid with the sarcophagus of Sukong himself underneath in the year 2045

I just want to see some bones with hair all over them.

Is this like "The Lost Tomb of Su"!

[tattooedmonk]

I just got done watching and reviewing a wushu,( contemporary and modern.mostly contemporary, meaning fighting arts ), virtual magazine site which has all these videos of CMA.

Anyway......... I am sitting here watching all these forms and seeing so many moves directly out of some of our forms in SD, performed just like we do them.

For all you idiots that think and believe that SD does not teach authentic Shaolin Kung Fu you are lost and totally clueless.

You all get caught up in the outward trappings and whatever but none of you have any idea of what true Shaolin or CMA is if you think SD is not the real deal.

You are too caught up in the non intrinsic aspects to see the truth.

SD is for real.

Yeah some of the claims and this and that may be out there but this does not take away from the true heart of the art ,which SD definately has.

So go pull your heads out of your @$$es long enough to experience SD for a couple of months and you will surely be convinced .

and by the way.........STFU already about all this BULL$hit. Unless you have some undeniable proof that SD is not what it claims to be STFU!!!

what I am tired of hearing from all you @$$ wipes is the same old sorry cr@p. pick something relievant and intrinsic about the art to debate about.

stupid keyboard martial arts want a bees.

[tattooedmonk]

...........as I understand it the southern temple that Su Kong resided in is different than the one from the Five Elders history.

The one of the five elders history was a smaller temple associated with the main temple ,so this would account for the difference in dates and histories.

Just like it was said before it is HIS Story.

Even the Bible is said to be the word of God but the problem is man wrote it and he has flaws and makes mistakes . Man has a narrow perspective based on biases. Do you , if you believe in the Bible , believe that it is all accurate and has no flaws ??

Hell so many books have been left out of the Bible.

As far as I am concerned the editing and leaving sections out is a flaw and outright a mistake.

Anyone read the Book of Enoch ?? That is some mind blowing $h!t!!

Only recently, ( this is relative ), has there been the documentation and publishing of the history of CMA and the Shaolin Temples .

There is a great deal of the history that has been lost for many reasons for many years.

Some say there was only one Shaolin Temple, in Honan. Some say that there was never any martial arts taught there. Many peolpe say all sorts of things and a great deal of it is hard to prove .

So take that and stick it in your ear!!!

[kungfujunky]

i agree the omitted books of the bible paint a very different picture than what the church wanted seen

hey willow sword i knew the pic thing would get you to post lol