Question For lkfmdc On Traditional Chinese Styles

[Golden Arms]

There is crossover, but you cant master it all before you die. Most people dont have the body conditioning of a bando or thai camp guy, most people dont have the fingers of a good Hung/SPM/Bagua person that actually does the training for 10+ years regularly, most people dont have the knife skills of a Kali/FMA person, etc. So, yes, CMA do have some things others dont really have at that level, as do most arts in their respects. I know some TKD guys can use their feet like hands, its all in how you specialize and what you learn.

[FlyingCrane]

Related, you may however want to ask yourself why you never see a clear manifestation of your conception of "internal" in anything that is not staged or pre arranged....

lkfmdc: Again, you make a very good point here. This is actually what I've been trying to get around to in this discussion. And that is, even if it is a fact that this more "psychic" (for lack of a better word) type of internal power exists, is there any real practical value to it when it comes to live combat in the real world? From your comments here, I gather that your answer would be no.

I would imagine that with your background in studying high level CMA for many years in Chinatown, that you have seen more than your share of "strange and bizarre" displays and demonstrations of Chi power, etc. Yet in the final analysis, are you saying that there really isn't any practical fighting value in developing any of these skills?

Black Jack II: I appreciate your honest opinions on this also. You mentioned that Randi has been waiting for people to prove this (by "this", I assume that you mean this type of "psychic" internal power) for years.

Forgive my ignorance, but who is Randi? I am not familiar with who this is.

Related to all of this, I assume that most people here are familiar with the book "The Magus of Java" by Kosta Danaos. This is supposedly the story of a Sifu named John Chang who lives in Java, and is a high level Taoist with amazing Chi Gung abilities.

Is it thought, or has it been proven that the claims in this book are suspect, or fraudulent also?

[Becca]

Related to all of this, I assume that most people here are familiar with the book "The Magus of Java" by Kosta Danaos. This is supposedly the story of a Sifu named John Chang who lives in Java, and is a high level Taoist with amazing Chi Gung abilities.

Is it thought, or has it been proven that the claims in this book are suspect, or fraudulent also?

I have learned to take much in books like that with a grain, or 20, of salt. Chi Gung is not magical, mystical, or anything else. The only "internal" element of it is in developing the strong mind. The chi manipulation is the same; this is only one way, the chinese way, of empowering the spirit, or life energy. the rest is is preparring the bones, muscle and other tissue to handle great stress. You use all 3 effectively, you get Chi Gung.

What most people think of Chi Gung is a misunderstanding of what they see, because they don't understand it. It is, of lack of a better way of saying it, using mind over mater to unlock your body's truest abilities. Chi Gung is what it is called in Chinese martial arts. It "looks" a certain way because of the fraimwork used to teach it. Just as you write with a certain flair because that is how you were taught it.

[FlyingCrane]

Interesting points Becca.

Just as an FYI...Kosta Daneos doesn't make Chi Gung out to be mystical or magical in his book. But he does report seeing as well as experiencing extrodinary things while studying Chi Gung with John Chang in Java. Things that would be considered, at least by western standards, to be quite beyond the ordinary.

For example, in one situation, he (the student and author) learns to actually move small objects, such as a pack of cigarettes, across a table without actually ever touching them. In fact, this is the "test" that he has to pass to show his Sifu that he is ready to move from level 2 to level 3 in his Sifu's Chi Gung curriculum.

The way that he supposedly moved the pack of cigarettes differs from pure telekinesis, since with that, one is supposedly moving an object just with one's mind, by thought alone. In the case of Kosta Daneos, he reports that he moved the pack of cigarettes by placing his open palm near them, and then, by focusing on and amplifying his Chi flow through his palm, he sent the pack of cigarettes sliding several inches across the table.

Of course, this whole story may or may not be true. But if it is true, it certainly points to the possibility of developing a very different kind of internal energy. However, even if one did develop this, it may be extremely difficult to apply it in any usefull way in a real world combat situation. I believe that lkfmdc was trying to make this point in one of his responses on this thread.

[lkfmdc]

For example, in one situation, he (the student and author) learns to actually move small objects, such as a pack of cigarettes, across a table without actually ever touching them. In fact, this is the "test" that he has to pass to show his Sifu that he is ready to move from level 2 to level 3 in his Sifu's Chi Gung curriculum.

The way that he supposedly moved the pack of cigarettes differs from pure telekinesis, since with that, one is supposedly moving an object just with one's mind, by thought alone. In the case of Kosta Daneos, he reports that he moved the pack of cigarettes by placing his open palm near them, and then, by focusing on and amplifying his Chi flow through his palm, he sent the pack of cigarettes sliding several inches across the table.

Of course, this whole story may or may not be true.

It is truly depressing to see someone believe that sort of stuff

real simple, if he can really move a pack of cigarettes with "chi" or whatever, he could be a MILLION DOLLARS richer... the old James Rhandi test....

Do you know why no "chi kung master" has ever claimed that million dollars? Because their tricks are just that, tricks, like every pro magician uses

[Black Jack II]

Here is his website, he has been at this for ever, and no one has proven they can do anything which they state. Including qi qong masters and fraud psychic criminals like Brown.

The simple reason being that its all bullsh!t.

http://www.randi.org/

[PangQuan]

does the have to yell "HADOKEN" to make the qi flow from his hands?

[FlyingCrane]

Do you know why no "chi kung master" has ever claimed that million dollars? Because their tricks are just that, tricks, like every pro magician uses

lkfmdc, I know that my aquaintence with you was brief, but during the short time that I knew you, you relayed several stories to me in which you yourself had apparently experienced some very unusual phenomenon of this nature down in Chinatown. At the time that you were telling me these stories, which was back in the early nineties, you seemed to very much believe that you had experienced this stuff for real first hand.

What happened that changed your opinion into now believing that such things are all bull$hit?

[lkfmdc]

According to established western conception of anatomy and diagnosis, there is no reason why accupuncture should do what it does, but it does. But it's a HUGE JUMP from the chi and meridians in accupuncture practice to pushing a cigarette box across a table with Chi

Similarly, I've felt hot and cold energy in people's hands, whether a result of "chi", of manipulation of circulation or even hypnotic suggestion, I've felt it. Yet never seen that transfer to any applicable combat skill

[Royal Dragon]

If it exists at all, it is a side effect of the training, not the reason.

[FlyingCrane]

lkfmdc, the stories about chi, etc., and your personal experiences with it that you shared with me back in the 90's we're far more in-depth, and esoteric than what you're describing here now.

I realize that this may not be the place to discuss these things. And I don't wish to open up things that you may not be comfortable discussing, esp. in an open forum like this.

Please understand that my motives for asking you about these things are based on very in-depth soul searching on my part with regards to trying to understand the possible reality behind esoteric practices in the martial arts and elsewhere.

You can private message me if you want me to just drop this, and I will respect your request, and just drop it. If you are OK with me getting into exactly what I remember you and I discussing back in the 90's with regards to the more esoteric side of Kung Fu training, then let me know, and I will explain what I remember you and I discussing, and hopefully you will have some helpful commentary on how you view these things now.

Thanks.