Ground fighting

[Wayfaring]

training to use the cage (what to do when your up against it, when to move towards it, when to move away from it) is part of mma-specific training that could really pay off in a real life situation.

I think at least spending a little time working against a cage or wall is recommended in training ground fighting. There's very few realistic environment skirmishes that will not have some element of restricted space or something to pin someone against (unless you get caught cow tipping or something like that).

Against a cage, or a wall, etc. there are different takedown techniques than in the open. The ground and pound game opens up much more against a fixed cage or wall, and the game changes from the top and the bottom.

That is one significant difference in training a sport grappling (gi or no gi) and a realistic environment.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Here's another reason why I like you're thread, Anthony...because it can morph into other important related topics concerning "streetfighting". You see, I agree with Anerlich's assessment that training on concrete is too risky to be done with any kind of frequency or real time speed and power...

but occasional outdoor training on concrete - without the dangerous throws, sweeps, and shoots actually being "completed", but rather, simulated...can make for a very productive training session that can often be more productive than one on a mat in the school.

And why?

Because you will respect the hard ground more if you occasionally train on it (ie.- at least once a month, let's say)...than if you almost never train on it.

At least that's been my experience.

And here's an example of morphing this kind of training into other related topics: one of the moves that I teach my guys (and we practice regularly, although albeit "simulated" - meaning that the key part of the move is never done full force)...

is to take someone down with what's known in some wrestling circles as a "leg dive"...ie,- one way to do this is a double leg shoot wherein you grab his legs and then you "try to" straighten up - so that he hits the floor and you don't.

I say "try to" because you will go down - but the act of trying to straighten up as you're driving forward (and possibly turning the corner)...and you're driving with your head and shoulder all the while as well as your legs...is that you will have the opportunity to "land" (yes, you will go down)...but you can land with your knee right in his groin.

These things don't become so apparent to the mind's eye if you always train in the gym/school on the mat - because you're not thinking in those terms. And what terms are those? By answering the following questions: "How can I use the ground to end this fight"? "How would I have to land"? "How can I take him down on concrete, for example, while saving my own knees, head, face, etc."?

Always thinking of fighting in terms of "real life" situations as one's top priority is the best way to go, imo.

But needless to say - you need to take those ideas back onto the mats and work them - until the next outdoor class inspires more ideas.

So your idea for this thread is a good one, imo...much better than it's been given credit for.

[sunfist]

There is no point to training on mats. BJJ was originally designed not to be trained on mats, thats why its just judo without the throws.
Back when the Gracies were first running their gym, they would bash peoples heads into the ground all the time.

[drleungjohn]

Since I asked the question-and haven't had a chance to check this until now-wow!!!

Growing up in NY and Queens-I have seen my share of fights start standing up and yes go to the ground-and when there was a thud-the fight was usually over or just about-I have also seen my share of curb kissing,and it still grosses me out-

ok-first-I hold a brown belt in Judo-so I have had some "groundtime"-next-I have had experience in college with Collegiate level wrestlers who wanted to take down "the kung fu guy"-2 of my students were wrestlers who were interigued with the "stand up" game of WCK and felt that is was an easy mark for take downs-

One joined when I stood him up with an uppercut as he tried a high feint and low dive to shoot my legs-a bloody nose and a believer after that-BUT-He did play havoc with many of the students until they learned how not to be taken down

The other joined because he saw the value of chi sao as a method of getting from one range to hte next w/o taking a shot-he was very helpful in translating standing chi sao into prone/mounted and horizontal body chi sao-

I ask the question because recently I had a "MMA guy" find me and want to "see about WCK",if it was all it was cracked up to be. (You guys know where this is going)--well,I said ok- we stalked each other-circling,flanking etc-he crossed over my dnager zone-I came in with a "baited" TWC entry technique-he grabbed the leg-I slammed my leg down along his outer thigh and twisted over it-ala Hong Kong Chum Kiu first third(or Ba Gua-whatever your preference) with an elbow to the head on the twist(more of a push really)-and he went down and landed on his elbow-he was done after that--so it got me to thinking about concrete and training-end of story

[Knifefighter]

Since I asked the question-and haven't had a chance to check this until now-wow!!!

Growing up in NY and Queens-I have seen my share of fights start standing up and yes go to the ground-and when there was a thud-the fight was usually over or just about-I have also seen my share of curb kissing,and it still grosses me out-

ok-first-I hold a brown belt in Judo-so I have had some "groundtime"-next-I have had experience in college with Collegiate level wrestlers who wanted to take down "the kung fu guy"-2 of my students were wrestlers who were interigued with the "stand up" game of WCK and felt that is was an easy mark for take downs-

One joined when I stood him up with an uppercut as he tried a high feint and low dive to shoot my legs-a bloody nose and a believer after that-BUT-He did play havoc with many of the students until they learned how not to be taken down

The other joined because he saw the value of chi sao as a method of getting from one range to hte next w/o taking a shot-he was very helpful in translating standing chi sao into prone/mounted and horizontal body chi sao-

I ask the question because recently I had a "MMA guy" find me and want to "see about WCK",if it was all it was cracked up to be. (You guys know where this is going)--well,I said ok- we stalked each other-circling,flanking etc-he crossed over my dnager zone-I came in with a "baited" TWC entry technique-he grabbed the leg-I slammed my leg down along his outer thigh and twisted over it-ala Hong Kong Chum Kiu first third(or Ba Gua-whatever your preference) with an elbow to the head on the twist(more of a push really)-and he went down and landed on his elbow-he was done after that--so it got me to thinking about concrete and training-end of story

Why is it that the guys who always preface their posts with having had years of experience in (pick one):
a) judo;
b) BJJ;
c) Muay Thai;
d) boxing
never once use a single technique from these significant years of experience in these disciplines in the requisite stories that follow about how they trashed the (pick one):
a) grappler;
b) Muay Thai fighter
c) boxer
d) MMA fighter
????????????

[Mr Punch]

OK, normally I'm with you... but I can't see this one KF...

the answer is... because he said he used a WC tech...!



Are you saying you don't believe him? Or it's not possible?

[Liddel]

Knifefighter - its only one story for cryin out loud. Ask him, he may have more stories to tell that may suit what you want to hear

Plus - does it not make sence that if he has good ground and standup skillz against a good wrestler / ground guy - hed nutralise him with the standup if the op presented itself ???

Oh no thats right a VT guy cant have good standup ???

Sometimes IMO you act like everyone with a ground game is the shiz,
Like thiers no bad grapplers ???

Correct me if im wrong

I have experience with using elbows but alas, sometimes the situation just calls for punching....what-u-gunna-do

[Water-quan]

There is no point to training on mats. BJJ was originally designed not to be trained on mats, thats why its just judo without the throws.
Back when the Gracies were first running their gym, they would bash peoples heads into the ground all the time.

Well, they must be very silly then, IF that is true. Self defence and health preservation are inseperable in my book, because the first line of defence is keeping yourself healthy and fit and not doing any training methods that damage you. You might as well punch yourself in the face.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Why is it that the guys who always preface their posts with having had years of experience in (pick one):
a) judo;
b) BJJ;
c) Muay Thai;
d) boxing
never once use a single technique from these significant years of experience in these disciplines in the requisite stories that follow about how they trashed the (pick one):
a) grappler;
b) Muay Thai fighter
c) boxer
d) MMA fighter
????????????"


***I DON'T SEE THAT at all in John's post...What I see is a realistic view of what can happen in a fight, ie.- the guy who tries to take the fight to the ground can get the worst of it. It happens. Look how difficult it is for people to take Cro Cop down. Or Liddell. The fact is, real fighting should entail the mindset that you don't want to go to the ground unless you have to (or unless you see an immediate fight-ending possibility if you do).

Too many things can go wrong: He's got a friend in the vicinity. He could pull something out of his pocket while on the ground that you're in no position to see - whereas if it had remained standing - you probably would see it. The terrain is too dangerous because of rocks, glass, rolling into an oncoming car, etc.

[Knifefighter]

Oh no thats right a VT guy cant have good standup ???

Sure they can... it's just that the situation he described against the single leg is so low percentage technically as to be almost ludicrous... especially from someone with a supposed grappling background who would have more than likely used a higher percentage technique from his arsenal.

[Knifefighter]

OK, normally I'm with you... but I can't see this one KF...

the answer is... because he said he used a WC tech...!



Are you saying you don't believe him? Or it's not possible?

I am saying he is following the same formula I have seen posted so many times before. Preface your post by stating you have a significant background in the style you supposedly beat, or one closely related. Don't use any techniques from that style in your supposed confrontation when those techniques might have been much higher percentage ones to use.

I believe you have a grappling background... think about this:

I came in with a "baited" TWC entry technique-he grabbed the leg-I slammed my leg down along his outer thigh and twisted over it-ala Hong Kong Chum Kiu first third(or Ba Gua-whatever your preference) with an elbow to the head on the twist(more of a push really)-and he went down and landed on his elbow

What percentage do you think "slamming your leg" on your opponent's outer leg would be against a single leg? I'm guessing if you have much of a background in grappling, you would know how low percentage (if not ludicrous) this type of thing would be against a single leg takedown (more along the lines of what someone who really had no experience with this would theorize about how it might be done). Someone with a significant background in judo would more than likely work a more high percentage move from his background in judo.

[Knifefighter]

***I DON'T SEE THAT at all in John's post...What I see is a realistic view of what can happen in a fight, ie.- the guy who tries to take the fight to the ground can get the worst of it.

Of course someone who wants to close and grapple can get the worst of an encounter. That's a possible and realistic outcome.

What's not realistic is his technical description of what happened. The fact is that grapplers who get stopped going in for takedowns rarely, if ever, get stopped by the techniques he is describing.

If you are buying the technical description of his defense against the single leg, detail to me how that might be done. The MMA guy supposedly "grabbed the leg"... how does one now slam the leg into the opponent's outer thigh from there?

And doesn't it seem strange that someone with a grappling background would attempt to do this against the single?

Look how difficult it is for people to take Cro Cop down. Or Liddell.

Look over all of their fights. You won't see a single instance of then doing anything close to what he is describing to stop a single leg.

Also, if you were to watch every instance of a leg takedown getting stopped, I doubt you would find even a single instance of this happening from an upper cut. You will see leg takedown attacks stopped with crosses, knees, sprawls, stuffs, and even jabs... but not uppercuts. You might possibly see an uppercut as part of a counter attack barrage AFTER the leg attack has been stopped, but not to stop it the way he is describing. There are sound technical and biomechanical reasons regarding why this is so- especially against a collegiate level wrestler.

[SevenStar]

OK, normally I'm with you... but I can't see this one KF...

the answer is... because he said he used a WC tech...!



Are you saying you don't believe him? Or it's not possible?

I don't think that's what he's getting at. the thing is, if his wc stand up is so hot and wc is what he used to neutralize it, then nobody really gives a hoot is he is a sankyu of above in judo - it has ZERO relevance to his actual story. Yet, for some reason he seems to feel the need to make it clear that he has had some ground related sport training - why?

When I talk about shiai and ring fights, I don't say:

I have 5 years of longfist training and several years of jkd/jun fan. I entered a shiai over the weekend and drew the biggest black belt in my division. We tied up, I off balanced him and threw him with a hard harai goshi. End of story.

My kung fu relevance has zero relevance to the story, so why even mention it?

[Ultimatewingchun]

I don't quite understand what John was getting at either...in the way he described it. (The MMA guy supposedly "grabbed the leg"... how does one now slam the leg into the opponent's outer thigh from there?)...

But my comments were aimed at the overall picture regarding going to the ground or not - and if so, how to use the act of going to the ground to your advantage.

And yes, I agree with your comments about using uppercuts only after stopping the takedown, for all intents and purposes....with one exception: stuffing his head as he tries to shoot with one hand while uppercutting with a palm strike or two to his face with the other is one worth exploring. And simultaneously buy time for this by transferring almost all your weight to the leg he's attacking - if it's a single leg. (A TWC move).

Using an open palm instead of the fist gives a slightly different physiological angle than trying to punch him with a closed fist.

[SevenStar]

Too many things can go wrong: He's got a friend in the vicinity. He could pull something out of his pocket while on the ground that you're in no position to see - whereas if it had remained standing - you probably would see it. The terrain is too dangerous because of rocks, glass, rolling into an oncoming car, etc.

there is always a possibility of anything happening. People tend to take those possibilities though, and magnify them into fear - in this case, making going to the ground taboo. As a bouncer, I've taken things to the ground - both intentionall and non - several times, and have never:

1. rolled over broken glass
2. been gut up by gravel (and I have been on the concrete on the outside of the club)
3. been jumped on by any of his buddies. (it did ALMOST happen ONCE, but I had the guy mounted and postured up when I saw his friend. He hesitated, I guess not knowing if I was gonna swing. While he was waiting and watching me, another bouncer grabbed him)
4. been stabbed - matter of factly, all of the knife incidents I've been involved in have happened while standing.

Naturally, that's not to say that these things cannot happen, only that they do not happen as much as people tend to assume they do.