Calling a spade, a spade....

[neilhytholt]

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/art

1 Pronunciation (ärt)
n.
1. Human effort to imitate, supplement, alter, or counteract the work of nature.
2.
a. The conscious production or arrangement of sounds, colors, forms, movements, or other elements in a manner that affects the sense of beauty, specifically the production of the beautiful in a graphic or plastic medium.
b. The study of these activities.
c. The product of these activities; human works of beauty considered as a group.
3. High quality of conception or execution, as found in works of beauty; aesthetic value.
4. A field or category of art, such as music, ballet, or literature.
5. A nonscientific branch of learning; one of the liberal arts.
6.
a. A system of principles and methods employed in the performance of a set of activities: the art of building.
b. A trade or craft that applies such a system of principles and methods: the art of the lexicographer.
7.
a. Skill that is attained by study, practice, or observation: the art of the baker; the blacksmith's art.
b. Skill arising from the exercise of intuitive faculties: "Self-criticism is an art not many are qualified to practice" Joyce Carol Oates.
8.
a. arts Artful devices, stratagems, and tricks.
b. Artful contrivance; cunning.
9. Printing Illustrative material.

[Kung Pao]

See the bold part of the wikipedia quote.



Bull****.



I throw out this bombshell......if you haven't engaged in combat with a sword or spear then you really don't know how to use it.

Combat? are you talking deadly combat?

If so, there'd never have been a solidier with a spear.....they'd lal have been dead by then. Otherwise, combat by way of sparring. Even gladiators used wooden swords...lol.....

Half of combat is luck. Lucky positioning, lucky opponents, lucky ground. In the mix of battle, you have to count on the guy next to you. hence, battle formations are more important than skill with a weapon.

Here's a good paralell, now that 300 has hit the cinemas. Give me 300 spartans with spear and shield, and 300 shaolin monks with spears and shields, I'll always take hte spartans. The West was always stronger when it came to battle formations. Skirmish fighting is only good in terrain without open visibility.

Skrimish fighting relies on either surprise, or personal skill with weapons. Twirling, etc. is no good in war. It's the basics, man, the basics. parry, thrust. What more do you need?

Even in the Iliad, when heroes fought heroes, it wasn't fancy technique. It was throwing--javelin--, spear fighting, occasionally swords (though it was Bronze age and swords sucked, so they weren't prominent), or wrestling.

Keepin' it ismple.

Anyway, what's the point of this post?

Who cares about combat applications anymore? Well, I do....but they're useless except for giving forms a little tweak. We'll never defend our lives or land with spears in the near future, unless there's a break-in and they pick the wrong house on the block....lol.....mine....and then it won't come down to skill in combat applications. If he's got anything less than a gun, he's going down. If he's got a gun, well, I'll lure him into the deadfuall I dug out in teh kitchen....lol....

[Kung Pao]

Martial arts is the perfect way to describe our combat. It encompasses weapons and hand skills, yet tags "art" onto them. Well, they are art, because they're preserving a cultural way of making war.....kind of like applicable anthropology. Modern warfare is guns and ballistic missiles. It's martial, to be sure. Hardly "art".

Would you call a stealth bomber pilot a martial artist? Nope. He's a pilot, and a soldier.

Would you call a CMA'ist a martial artist? Yup.

Would you call spearman in the Tang Dynasty a martial artist? Nope, he was a footsoldier. A warrior.

By studying his trade outside of his historical context, you preserve it as an art. Swordplay is illegal in our age. therefore, it is an art. It cannot be applied.

[Fu-Pow]

Combat? are you talking deadly combat?

If so, there'd never have been a solidier with a spear.....they'd lal have been dead by then. Otherwise, combat by way of sparring. Even gladiators used wooden swords...lol.....

I'm talking about any application based exercises at all. Then I'm talking about padded weapons sparring and then I'm talking about taking a real weapon and using it on a side of beef or something that simulates cutting flesh....harsh but
that's what you needed if you really want to know how to use a weapon.

Who cares about combat applications anymore? Well, I do....but they're useless except for giving forms a little tweak. We'll never defend our lives or land with spears in the near future, unless there's a break-in and they pick the wrong house on the block....lol.....mine....and then it won't come down to skill in combat applications. If he's got anything less than a gun, he's going down. If he's got a gun, well, I'll lure him into the deadfuall I dug out in teh kitchen....lol....

But that gets into why people study H2H at all? And that's a personal reason for each person. If you want to study Chinese calisthenics then call it what it is. If you want to study H2H then call it what it is.

[Fu-Pow]

Martial arts is the perfect way to describe our combat. It encompasses weapons and hand skills, yet tags "art" onto them. Well, they are art, because they're preserving a cultural way of making war.....kind of like applicable anthropology. Modern warfare is guns and ballistic missiles. It's martial, to be sure. Hardly "art".

Would you call a stealth bomber pilot a martial artist? Nope. He's a pilot, and a soldier.

Would you call a CMA'ist a martial artist? Yup.


Would you call spearman in the Tang Dynasty a martial artist? Nope, he was a footsoldier. A warrior.

By studying his trade outside of his historical context, you preserve it as an art. Swordplay is illegal in our age. therefore, it is an art. It cannot be applied.

In your example, both are warriors/soldiers. That's because they go to war and they fight using the technology that is/was available to them. They kill people for a living.

One is skilled in flying planes, one is skilled in H2H combat. And that's my point exactly. We're not talking about what you use H2H combat for or why you want to learn it. We're talking about calling its study what it is. You can call it an "art" all you want but now you're getting away from the original idea of what it is....and its a slippery slope and opens it up to all kinds of erroneous interpretation...and opens the doors for Charlatans who imply that they teach H2H combat but load it down with all this "artistic" baggage that you could spend a lifetime under and never get out from it.

"Martial arts" has many side benefits, but the original idea, the original purpose, the origin of the methods, was to excel in H2H combat. So you have to ask yourself, do you belong to a school that excels at H2H combat or something else...like forms or lion dance? And are you getting what you came for?

FP

[Kung Pao]

When I signed up, I figured I'd meet some hot, fit asian chicks.

Turned out to be geeky teens, fat chicks, and some goths.

It was a big letdown.

[GeneChing]

...or in this spelling hojutsu...

P1 Exclusive: Hojutsu-Ryu, the martial art of shooting
By Jeffrey Hall

At first glance, the concept of shooting as a “traditional” martial art seems ridiculous. After all, martial arts are steeped in centuries of tradition, mysticism, and superhuman feats of skill; how can shooting a firearm compare with this?

If you consider principles, rather than tools, shooting is clearly a martial art. Stance, balance, focus, execution, and follow-through are the same, whether the hit is from a reverse punch or a pistol. We must master each of these elements of the technique before we can fight effectively.

Jeff Hall (above, left), a retired Alaska State trooper, former soldier, and NRA instructor, is a life-long shooter and martial artist. He can be contacted at www.hojutsu.com.

As to tradition, at what point does learning a physical skill become a tradition? I’m fairly certain that the first warrior to train with a katana was only looking for a tool that would save his life; better swords and effective techniques evolved into the formalized training protocol that became the way of the sword, but it probably developed through trial and error.

Shooting has always been a martial art. Martial, or military, was the primary reason for technological advancement in firearms. We progressed from resin-wrapped bamboo tubes, to iron tubes, through a variety of ignition systems, to the sophisticated weapons of today. However, no amount of technology will ever replace dedicated training with professional instructors, and a lifetime of dedication to the shooting arts.

Firearms were introduced to Japan in the 1530’s by the Portuguese. Although some purists disdained the new weapons, others embraced them. The samurai, after all, were in the war “business”, and the addition of firearms added tactical and strategic advantages to those who used them. In the 1575 Battle of Nagashino, an army of peasant conscripts, armed with firearms, defeated the classically trained and armed army of Takeda Katsuyori. This victory assured the inclusion of the firearm in Japanese military culture.

In typical Japanese fashion, a formalized, structured training discipline soon evolved.

Hojutsu, or “fire art,” is considered a koryu, or old tradition art, predating 1868. It usually translates as “the art of gunnery.” Since most modern shooters think of gunnery as artillery or crew-served weapons, I took the liberty of changing gunnery to “shooting.” Hojutsu-Ryu, then, is the “School of the Art of Shooting.”

In 1999, I was teaching an NRA rifle class in Fairbanks, Alaska. In the evenings, I trained in the dojo of So-Shihan Charles Scott. Master Kyoshi Yamazaki was in town for a clinic, and I invited him to the range during a lunch break. After twenty minutes of training, Master Yamazaki was shooting tiny groups with a 1911 Colt. Master Yamazaki caused my internal light to come on regarding the similarity in firearms and other martial training; I then set out to make modern shooting a recognized martial art.

There were initially three reasons to do so:
• to recognize the years of dedicated training it takes to master firearms,
• to integrate other weapons (hands, feet, sticks, knives) into the warrior’s gear bag, and
• to strive for excellence in firearms training.

A fourth benefit, discipline, soon became apparent – the thought occurred to me that if we can build traditional martial training discipline into a young shooter, maybe we’ll have fewer idiots on the street!

With the help of many great martial artists and shooters, I melded the Modern Technique with traditional Japanese training structure. I didn’t invent anything – I just formalized a concept that many of us have been talking about for years. My early firearms mentors included my father (a DSC and eight Purple Hearts), Jeff Cooper, and Chuck Taylor, with later influence from Clint Smith and Louie Awerbuck, among others. Grandmasters Mark Shuey and Dr. Charles Scott also guided me along this path.

This quest has resulted in induction into the U.S. Martial Arts and Universal Martial Arts Halls of Fame, promotion to tenth dan and grandmaster, and being named “soke,” or founder, of the art. What this means to those of you with no traditional background is that sober, life-long grandmasters agree that shooting is a martial art, and have “blessed” it, and made it legitimate in the martial arts world. As this is written, Hojutsu-Ryu is the only formally recognized shooting art in the world.

In Hojutsu-Ryu, we train in the dojo, in gis, in weapon retention, disarming, punches, kicks, sticks of all kinds, edged weapons, and ground fighting; we adhere to traditional protocol (bowing, meditation, etc.) during dojo sessions. On the range, in normal range clothing, we start with the handgun and progress through shotgun, carbine, revolver, precision rifle, and submachine gun. Each handgun test becomes more difficult, until the sandan (3rd dan) test approaches Chuck Taylor’s Handgun Combat Master test, shooting 98% on three consecutive tests. Standards require that a single miss outside the outer scoring ring is a failure of the entire test – the shooter must begin again. We use the “SJH” or Hojutsu target (you can get these from www.letargets.com). Before beginning training with the carbine, each student must also pass the shodan (1st dan) test with a revolver (how can you call yourself a gun-guy if you can’t run a wheelgun?)

At each level, the student must pass a written test on firearms, an oral test, write an essay on a given subject, master a kata (there are three katas, for first through third dan), and shoot accurately in compressed time frames. The written tests are on the history of the development of firearms – students have to know that the Glock did not arrive by FedEx from God (like the 1911 did!). Our goal is to develop fighters who can win when flat on their backs or 300 meters distant.

A typical seminar will run about four days. Each morning finds us training at the dojo for two hours, practicing weapon disarming and retention, empty-hand techniques, and kata. The remainder of the day is spent at the shooting range, perfecting technique, improving speed and accuracy, and preparing for testing.

Day four is test day. We begin at 0800, at the dojo, for kata (the only subjective portion of the testing). On the range, the shooting portions of testing begin. Three tests must be shot, in a specific order, at ranges from close-contact to fifty meters. Depending on the test, times ranged from 1.1 seconds to 90 seconds. To pass, students must have mastered speed and accuracy: 90 percent is required for shodan (1st degree black), 95 percent for nidan (2nd degree black), 98 percent for sandan (3rd black). Each overtime is penalized from five to ten points, depending on the course. After passing the shooting portions, the students must perform speed reloads, tactical reloads, and clear types one, two, and three malfunctions in compressed timeframes.

Hojutsu-Ryu is not for everyone. It has no appeal to some traditionalists who don’t think firearms belong in martial arts. Shooters with no martial arts background don’t understand the formality of dojo sessions (it is easier to turn a good martial artist into a shooter than vice versa!). You can acquire the same skills with firearms by attending classes at any of the schools I mention at the end of the article, without wearing pajamas and having to bow. Hojutsu is more about mindset than specific technique, but I require the Weaver stance, believing it fits better into an overall fighting system. At some point, technique is less important than principle, but we need to build a solid foundation- the Modern Technique is that foundation. Again, at some point, every martial art becomes an individual art; again, solid basics have to be mastered before free thinking can take place. Some feel the standards are too high (without high standards, what value does anything have? Go buy a black belt certificate on the Internet...).

Since the art began, we’ve had an interesting cross-section of shooters begin training. Some, like Soke-Dai Rod Kuratomi, are dedicated, life long karateka; some are police SWAT officers, some are military. Some are highly advanced in both shooting and in traditional arts and quickly master the skills; others have started a long period of training. In January of 2007, eight Las Vegas Metro firearms instructors hosted a seminar and all eight earned brown belts, including the range sergeant, Rich Fletcher.

For those that are interested, Hojutsu provides one path, of many, to excellence in shooting and in integrated fighting. Hojutsu-Ryu has dojos in Alaska, Texas, Washington, Colorado, Idaho, and California. Classes are taught all over the U.S., and can be arranged at locations anywhere. 2008 will see seminars in Florida, Italy, and elsewhere. Students with no handgun experience should also consider classes from American Small Arms Academy, Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, Yavapai Firearms Academy, ITTS, or Front Sight.

We are all motivated by different things. It may be NRA Distinguished Master, Handgun Combat Master, etc. If six feet of black cotton cloth motivates you to train hard, come join us in Hojutsu-Ryu- the fighting skills you learn just might also save your life.

[SimonM]

Even in the Iliad, when heroes fought heroes, it wasn't fancy technique. It was throwing--javelin--, spear fighting, occasionally swords (though it was Bronze age and swords sucked, so they weren't prominent), or wrestling.

Bronze age swords didn't suck. Bronze can make very nice weapons. The thing with bronze is this: it's heavy.

So bronze age swords were generally very short. Spears were considerably longer... therefore generally more useful to train with.


However for an example of how late-bronze age and early-iron age swords could be used to good effect see the Roman legion's use of the gladius.

(a note: late bronze-age bronze was a superior metal for weapons than early iron-age iron)

[David Jamieson]

The samurai who unified japan employing firearms.

His name was Oda Nobunaga.

he was the badest of the badasses to ever badass about the daimyos.




seriously, look him up. he was THE badass.

[Lucas]

didnt he only conquer a portion of japan?

edit: i guess ill go look

[Lucas]

from wiki

"Nobunaga lived a life of continuous military conquest, eventually conquering a third of Japanese daimyo before his death in 1582"

so maybe he was 1/3 THE man

[Kansuke]

You are right, of course. This Jamieson fella seems to value pronouncements and assumptions over actually knowing what the hell he is talking about.


Note the "look it up!" as if no one in the world but him had ever heard of Oda Nobunaga for crying out loud...

[Lucas]

i was thinking of this subject the other day actually, here was my thought;

i think using the term martial art is adequate, because when we are actually involved in combat, and putting our training to the test, and making use of the ability, we are not moving forward like some sort of robotic automaton.

for each technique, there is generally a counter or defense. your training will lead you to performing these things, but at the same time, you are not perfect. each person will be different, for many reasons.

i believe its this unique human aspect that gives life to the artistic aspect of combat. while combat is not always pretty (neither are all paintings ive seen) what each person is doing in that relationship during the fight is displaying themselves through combat.

likewise each person has different strenghts and weaknesses in all fields of their training. some people have natural aptitudes for certain aspects of the martial arts. some people are amazing kickers, some are punchers, some are grapplers, or submission artists.

similarly, many other aspects of war are like this. shooting a gun, or an arrow for example. there is a certain quality of 'oneness' one can achieve with their target that is often a long sought ability in archery.

granted we are all people so the amount of spirit we infuse into the way we do anything will always differ from person to person.

there have been distinct moments when i have felt my body connect and do a technique just right, that can give you a similar feeling to when you look at a completed drawing that you have been working long to complete.

[jdhowland]

Donn Draeger liked to emphasize that, properly used, the term "martial art" should only be applied to cultural entities that support a hereditary military class. His researches indicated that this was the sense of the term in its earliest preserved record in the English language. Granted, etymology does not determine the meaning of a term for all time and Donn, RIP, may have been overly influenced by his studies of the world's surviving military cultures.

My OED tells me that old Geoff Chaucer gets credit for the earliest recorded use in English in his reference to a "torney Marcial" (late 14th century). I don't find anything in early literature that supports the claim that martial can only refer to a military aristocracy, but it may have been understood as such.

My preference for my homegrown Saxon idiom leaves me with only a few simple choices of terms. "Fighting" works just fine. For those who do not resent latinisms we have "combatives," "pugilism," and "arts of fence." I have a fondness for a term that was popular about a century ago (when I was a wee lad): antagonistics. It allows for both defensive and sporting applications and applies as well to weapons training as to unarmed combat.

My sifu just called the stuff "mouh geih."

Be well.

jd

[David Jamieson]

You are right, of course. This Jamieson fella seems to value pronouncements and assumptions over actually knowing what the hell he is talking about.


Note the "look it up!" as if no one in the world but him had ever heard of Oda Nobunaga for crying out loud...

you are an angry and fixated person. This will hurt your liver in the long wrong.
look it up.