Southern arts - how different are they ?

[Ozzy Dave]

Hi Eric, no way are you alone on this.

This is a way of appreciating things, having respectful dialog between practitioners and learning. We learn our Gung Fu with our hands, we express it with our hands, and if we want to learn more we show respect with our mouth to all others in Wu Lin.

It’s what I picked up from my Teachers in Singapore. This is also how you touch hands and learn - safely. If you want to learn you have to “eat” someone’s Kung Fu not find intellectual ways of belittling it or putting yourself forward.

Gung Fu is "Art" as you can only appreciate art not compare. As soon as you compare there's only one way to settle it.

Really, I think if practitioners talk in terms of comparison, you’re better off not talking at all as such conversations invariably end up coming to a heated stale mate with each practitioner trying to convince another, who’s not going to shift their ground anyway, that they are right or that their method is more correct, true to the source, refined, blah, blah, blah. I believe the Cantonese have a nice expression for this – “Talking down the cow’s horn”, it comes to nothing.

We learn with our hands, when we talk here on the board we can get pointers to go out and test with our hands and you Eric, have provided many and I thank you but we can’t “learn” anything until we do that.

I guess, basically, I’m just a bit wary of what I think I know, as I do know, that my body will only do what it really “knows” and no more.

So for me Flavour is the best term to talk about the way styles express themselves. You can get a taste from the forms but it only really gets interesting when you touch hands.

Ten Tigers

I agree with you, but the Flavour of a style and its development from a root or "master sauce" (yep, I like cooking) is a bit different from its characteristics be they similar or different. Its like a life story you can kind of touch down the ages and it takes time to develop. This is why I don’t do MMA cause its kind of like eating nothing but plain rice porridge - keeps you going and does the job but there’s that and more in TCMA.

Don’t get me wrong I think we all need to put the gloves on and get a bit of porridge. I just appreciate all the side dishes that come with TCMA as well, including the fish balls. I’m a greedy b@$tard.

[Ozzy Dave]

Ok, I'm done philosophising

So in the interest of continuing on in the theme of the thread I'd like to ask everyone what you think of this.

To me, Wing Chun has more of Hakka flavour than Crane - what does anyone else think?

[SevenStar]

DNA:

With regards to the wai gong aspects lets think of dna in this way.

Human 1: conditions his muscles with dip gwat gong from south mantis
Human 2: conditions his muscles with snake slide caccon from emei
Human 3: conditions his muscles with weight lifting from the gym

The result will be a different """Texture""" to the muscle. When each person does there thing it will look the same but produce a different result on the end do to the conditioned Texture of the practitioner.

There is are only so many ways to move or twist the body. The way we condition it and deliver it make the major differences.

please explain this in greater detail

[Eric Ling]

Hi everybody,

“1-narrow, close stance, protecting the groin, and vitals,while maintaining movable root,quick mobility
2-elbows in,concave chest, chin tucked,to protect the vital targets
3-touch bridge sensitivity/reaction, as at thhis range, you are in contact with your opponent's bridge most likely-eyes,brain,reaction cannot occur at this range
4-most likely some sort of "iron body" strike absorbtion
5-short power,inch power, shock power,scared power
6-specialized hand-fung-an choy,geurng ji kuen,biu,jow,etc needed for striking vital points-penetration of such, with above delivery system
7-a shorter,miserly breathing pattern, based on 4,5,and 6”

Hahahaha, this forum is full of high hands…

Cannot argue with you on the above.

Rik, you , more or less, encapsulated most features for close fighting.

I could add :-

Chin –na/suppressing
Throwing/groundworks
Bridge-breaking – taking out opponent’s body weapons

But then again, not all styles employ everything.

Some specialize in one or configuration of a few of the above methodologies.

To me, the permutation is endless considering that we are only limiting ourselves within the scope we define. Some styles are combo of both North and South elements and that open up the premises.

I like the way Dave put it. CKF is ART and as in any art, there are no predeterminations or absolutes.

To accurately say 2 arts are similar; not only in texture but also elemental components, would mean understanding both “porridges”.

Can anyone here honestly say that they have that capability?

You never know until you do, to quote Dave.

Dave, we say “renowned Sifus produce adept students”; who is your Sifu in Singapore ?

Warmest Regards.

Eric

Rik, fish balls are meatballs using fish for ingredient. See I told you folks words get in the way….

[ironox]

Ok, I'm done philosophising

So in the interest of continuing on in the theme of the thread I'd like to ask everyone what you think of this.

To me, Wing Chun has more of Hakka flavour than Crane - what does anyone else think?

Hello Dave , Have you seen Eric Vids on Fan Zhuang and shaolin hakka mantis?, These are hakka styles but have similar techs to crane and in body posture, what we refer to hakka in the west is the concept from lung ying , bak mei and the chu gar , juklum, iron ox ETC body shapes, but this is not exaustable. We all can get the same food ingrediants but the way we cook and the outcome of the taste and look of the dish is very different.

This is interesting stuff ,

Hopefully Eric i will see you in May will be there 25th may onwards. Carlsburg in hand.

sean

[Eric Ling]

Hi Sean,

Will know my schedule after my Singapore/West Malaysia trip next week.

Besides the Carlsberg, I would love to set up my cameras and shoot the 2 of us playing ....

Plus setting you up to meet some of the Hakka Masters in Kuching.

Happy Gawai to you and your family my friend.

Cheers.

Warmest Regards.

[Ozzy Dave]

Hi Sean,

Yep I’ve seen Eric’s Vids on the Hakka Styles – Frankly, I’m blown away with the diversity. Sarawak has a large Hakka population and the breadth of their styles is to be treasured. Eric is a lucky guy.

I agree with you that the region from which an Art hails is very important in how it develops. Most of the Hakka Arts in the West are to my knowledge out of Hong Kong but the main Hakka areas are way further north in Guandong like Mo Yen (Mei Xian), which is way closer to Fujian than HK. In fact I think they are even closer to Bai He country like Yong Chun than HK!

However I’m more talking about the general attributes of what make a style or maybe more appropriately the signature for a group of styles within a theme not specific lines within styles. For instance I’ve seen Bai He from Chow An that looks to me a lot more like a Hakka Art than Bai He from further north but the Bai He signature is still there.

I can see the similarity between Bai He with the Hakka Arts but the general feeling I get from the Hakka styles is one of pressing power often applied from the inside with the running hands type technique – you know its often commented that Hakka Masters are well known for their speed and penetrating power which is something of a requirement for working the inside door. This to me seems more in tune with Wing Chun but I suppose it could just be parallel development, where as the Bai He I’ve seen tends to work the outside gate a lot more, not exclusively I must add.

I’d like to say these statements are not absolutes and it’s quite apparent that all three arts are well related at some level along with a range of other styles. For instance Tai Chor Kun, (Tai Tzu Quan) and Bai He often work off each other in terms of technique in fact the little Bai He I’ve learnt is I’m quite sure, a mix of Bai He and Tai Chor.

Eric,

I appreciate the kind words, though I haven't learnt any where near enough to deserve being called adept the Teacher I have learnt the most from in Singapore is Tan Eng Hock, he is my Sao Lim Sifu.

Cheers and beers

Dave

[Hendrik]

I can see the similarity between Bai He with the Hakka Arts but the general feeling I get from the Hakka styles is one of pressing power often applied from the inside with the running hands type technique – you know its often commented that Hakka Masters are well known for their speed and penetrating power which is something of a requirement for working the inside door. This to me seems more in tune with Wing Chun but I suppose it could just be parallel development, where as the Bai He I’ve seen tends to work the outside gate a lot more, not exclusively I must add.

Dave,


Good idea.

1,
HOw do you see the power generation of Hakka and White Crane and WCK in common or different? This will give lots of signature. how is hakka generate the power?

2,
As for the inside door and speed, IMHO, depend on which lineage of WCK. Is it the WCK 150 years ago or today's WCK that has to be look at closely. IMHO

Best Regards
Hendrik

[Ozzy Dave]

Hey Hendrick,

I’ve read some of your stuff over on wingchunkuen.com – high level my friend though I must admit I don't understand much of it and since you’re my senior in Sao Lim I don’t know what I could say to clarify anything for you i.e. talk at the same level.

I understand your point on where you take the reference for Wing Chun - now or 150 years ago. Its most definitely changed but that happens to all arts just look at the variation in Sao Lim and there are still first generation lay Masters teaching. Maybe 150 years ago there was not enough "Wing Chun" Flavour to mark Wing Chun as anything other than a line in Bai He.

But like I said in posts above this is natural and a special thing about TCMA. I’m asking from the Wing Chun perspective of now and I must say I don’t have enough experience in the other arts to fully and specifically answer your question re: “power generation”. I suppose its that I see the sinking type geng used to shock and disrupt the opponents structure in Wing Chun and I'm looking for that taste. I see it more in the Hakka Arts than Bai He where it appears Sinking is used more for control of the opponent's structure. Any way that's why I threw out the question - to get more insight on just this point.

Comparing Flavour is more a question for me on what tactics an Art uses rather than the specific power generation method. I kind of see this area as more open to variation by individual Masters according to their experiences. For instance Bai He has lots of Chin Na and you can see it in the way the stance is drilled i.e. stepping methods, very specific criteria for execution, etc all pointing at the stability of the structure for the task at hand.

But what if you were a bit useless at chin na, would you abandon your training? Don’t think so. Then you may have an adaptation and the criteria for the stance may change a bit to emphasise linear rather than turning speed, say Bu Ding Bu Ba, and you may use the sinking energy for shocking more than control – that’s kind of how I see the specifics of power generation - its dependant on the tactics used and the stepping and body method will follow accordingly.


Kind Regards

Dave

[Hendrik]

Hi Dave,


I’ve read some of your stuff over on wingchunkuen.com – high level my friend though I must admit I don't understand much of it .--------D

I am just day dream sometimes, so nothing high level. and day dream is difficult to comprehend .. hahaha



and since you’re my senior in Sao Lim I don’t know what I could say to clarify anything for you i.e. talk at the same level. --------D


since we are from the same Chan lineage, You know, to be honest, I dont believe in level differentiation. what I believe is about describing what we see in our own level. That way, everything is the truth.

For example, a kinder garden child describe about how colorfull is thier classroom. and that is perfect, we know they are describing the truth in thier way and with thier passionate vibes.

Then, we grow older, we try to be better and start to speculate that got us into trouble. As in Chinese it said, it is no longer Choon Tze or pure real. We dont even buy our own interpretation sometimes but we just reason ourself to buy it based on logic and wanting approval of others....etc.

Those are the practice got us into trouble.

Thus, just present what we see, nothing right nothing wrong. and what we see is the truth, similar to how the kinder garden child. The rest about senior junior...level.. title... doesnt matter.

It is Chan or Zen teaching from our sujo, " as it is -- that's it." Or in madarin "Tang Xia Jiu Sze" ( this instant is it)







I understand your point on where you take the reference for Wing Chun - now or 150 years ago. Its most definitely changed but that happens to all arts just look at the variation in Sao Lim and there are still first generation lay Masters teaching.

Maybe 150 years ago there was not enough "Wing Chun" Flavour to mark Wing Chun as anything other than a line in Bai He. ---------



Just to share with you my view:



This is a difficult topic which might have a lots of "if" isnt it? However, it is actually not that difficult. IMHO.



Say, in the eighties, the wing chun movie the prodigal son

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RLgBZAr9-o

the action director was trying to convey the characteristics of Wing Chun from the eyes of WCK senior (as I have heard ) such as GM Jiu or the student of GM Yip Man.

There in the clip we could see an image of What WCK is like in thier mind's eye.


Now,

Look at the clip of Bo Suk which Eric took. Bo Suk is a third generation from Red Boat actor Cho Soon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IH5V5wjFAcI



If we study the two clips, we will see, there is a common denominator there which is the Sticky taste. or the Mai San Ciim or Close body reeling/Sticking type of "taste". That is the taste of WCK.



From these two lineages, one is from Hong Kong which is a fast develop area where lots of influence by outside country will take place , and one is in PG where the development pace is much slower and less influence by outside community.

As in the chinese historian said, if one would like to see what is the older practice, then check it out in the village which has less influence by the outside.

Thus, we know. what is the "Wing Chun" Flavour to mark Wing Chun."


however, if you take today's WCK clip from say year 2000 HongKong or USA. Then, there might not be the Sticking taste any more but replace by rapid fire to the center line type of Flavour. thus we know, Localization Evolution has been taking place. and the "sticky flavour" is fading or even no longer there. or even there are Western Boxing influence. and those are all right. it is about Localization evolution as needed for the art to survive under different condition of the area and the people who practice it.




Now, Saying these above, So what make WCK WCK different with Bai He Yong Chun?

in my observation,

Well, from Yik Kam lineage, based on the kuen kuit passed down from Yik Kam

One of the core component in Siu Liem Tao is 單朝阳 and <方七娘白鶴拳十五勢>，就載有 : [跌、砍拳...招陽、......]十五個勢法，並注明如何動作及攻防意義之所在。.......這十五個勢應為當時最早見之於拳譜中的勢法， 當是當時所傳教的。

比如十五勢拳譜中所寫： [招 (昭) 陽。白鶴拳法之五：凡拳起手，只要招 (昭)陽，無論他用何勢，可用此勢，大門放過，小門直入。蓋此勢兩手顧鼻面，短牙顧中攔切，戒分 腳退後。]......。
沉肩、墜肘、坐腕成「昭陽手」，分成三節，肩至肘為內節(根節)，肘關節為中節，腕關節為尾節，要做到內節 如鐵一般堅實，與肩身成一整體；中節吞墜，尾節如膠如漆，靈活多變。雙手來去出力發勁，出手時吐氣(吐)， 收手時吸氣(吞)，一吞一吐互相配合無間，堅持「中門不讓，子午不離」。練習時與肩、頭、背、胯、膝要貫串 一氣，互相呼應，如有橡筋互相牽引、拉扯，吞肩坐節(墜肘)，發胛力，勁達指尖。出手時節中隨身與胯同向， 不可縮入開出，手節對膝，承接全身各處之力。




So, if we look at all the above description of 昭陽, one thing surface. There is a "snake" like flavour got fuse in and that is what in WCK which is different then the mother Bai He Yong Chun. So, there is an evolution here. Evolution on 昭陽勢法 to have "snake" flavour.



Now, in the legend, it is said that Miu Soon fuse the Bai he and his own art to create Siu Lien Tau, and we know for sure in today's Yik Kam's SLT kuen kuit that the kuen kuit had the Stanza from the Emei 12 zhuang which is famous in the Snake slide worm moves type of characteristics.



Thus, we know very likely what it is WCK of Yik Kam's lineage150 years ago in Yik Kam's time on board of the Red Boat.



In additional, we could also predict that, when the Snake type of training and power generation DNA is fading, then the art will default into White Crane Yong Chun like.

However, if the one hand Kau Kuan (fujian) or dealling and One hand strike core on center line characteristics of White Crane mother is further lost, then the art will further evolve into other type of art.. such as CLF or Hung Gar... that we could predict that is a likely track for Penang or Singapore's Yik Kam Ban Jong WCK on the past 20 years and years to come.

Thus, IMHHHO, we know it if we just Observe instead of speculate.




Comparing Flavour is more a question for me on what tactics an Art uses rather than the specific power generation method. ..... that’s kind of how I see the specifics of power generation - its dependant on the tactics -------D


Sure, specifics of power generation - its dependant on the tactics

For me,

Flavour/application/Tactics and specific power generation method all these components have to be there work hand in hand to make a wholistic uniqueness , instead of breaking and viewing each individual components which often lost its meaning. because 1 +1 often is not 2 but zero or 3 or ....etc

however, there is a main power generation theme eventhought there would be some room for evolution. outside of this main power generation theme, the art is evolve to the point of no longer same the art. IMHO.




finally, you dont have to be agree with me. I am just presenting my observation as it's.




Best Regards
Hendrik

[TenTigers]

two things-
one-posting the kuen kuit in chinese only leaves everyone else out of the conversation, other than one or two others. Please translate.

two-if WCK originally had snake flavor, I find this interesting as in Jook Lum, there is said Chung Yel Jung was the Poison Snake, and the jl hands are often referred to as poison snake hands.
I know of one extremely skilled, powerful Yip Man line WCK player who trains with my Jook Lum teacher.When my teacher asked him,"Your skill is very good, why learn from me?" his reply was, "I want to learn your hand", meaning the snake quality of the JL hand.
just food for thought

[Jim Roselando]

Hey Eric!


I understand what your saying and I agree with you that the difference are found in the little things.

Gotta run right now!

Work!

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


two-if WCK originally had snake flavor, I find this interesting as in Jook Lum, there is said Chung Yel Jung was the Poison Snake, and the jl hands are often referred to as poison snake hands.
I know of one extremely skilled, powerful Yip Man line WCK player who trains with my Jook Lum teacher.When my teacher asked him,"Your skill is very good, why learn from me?" his reply was, "I want to learn your hand", meaning the snake quality of the JL hand.
just food for thought

Jook Lum has the Duk Sae Gwun: Poison Snake gwun

Jook Lum's hands have their own quality to them. No doubt!

Gotta run!

[Eric Ling]

Hi everybody,

Brother Hendrik,

Just to confirm; “Zhao Yang Shou” refers to “Yang Palm” like in a “tan sao”?

And how do you interpret “letting go the front door and entering directly through the small door”? (2nd stanza 2nd line)

I noticed that the kuit talks about 3 sections of the “Zhao Yang” , can I then infer that this is a long bridge using 3 joints jing?

Bro, this kuit is taken from a particular Wing Chun lineage?

Dave, your Hakka/Wing Chun perception, imho, is really a matter of perspective.

“I can see the similarity between Bai He with the Hakka Arts but the general feeling I get from the Hakka styles is one of pressing power often applied from the inside with the running hands type technique – you know its often commented that Hakka Masters are well known for their speed and penetrating power which is something of a requirement for working the inside door. This to me seems more in tune with Wing Chun but I suppose it could just be parallel development, where as the Bai He I’ve seen tends to work the outside gate a lot more, not exclusively I must add.

I’d like to say these statements are not absolutes and it’s quite apparent that all three arts are well related at some level along with a range of other styles. For instance Tai Chor Kun, (Tai Tzu Quan) and Bai He often work off each other in terms of technique in fact the little Bai He I’ve learnt is I’m quite sure, a mix of Bai He and Tai Chor.”


Through my lenses, I see all the Wing hands, palms/fingers works and elbow as “White Crane”. And you are right, not all Cranes work the outside gate. I think most are evenly balanced out.

The connection between Tai Chor and White Crane runs much deeper than most think.

I will let 2 experts talk about this; one here in Penang, Master Ong Choon Seng and Singapore’s GM Teo Choon Teck.

Warmest Regards.

Eric

Ps writing this in Penang. At least this time, I am in a hotel with wi-fi in every room …….

[brothernumber9]

why does no one, perhaps other than Ten Tigers, want to address the regional, and I mean specific, regional influences on styles?

Styles that come from, that have been propogated from northern China, even very old traditional styles like Tai Tzu and Hua, and even some muslim styles have similarities that are evident. I don't know enough about them and similar looking systems, to know if they ever converged on the same area or region for a time.

However, look at an area like Toisan, and concerning "southern" fist which the topic was origianlly directed, you have sifu like Chung Yel Jung, Henry Poo Yee, Tai Yim, Chan Tai San, and a host of others that originally came out of what in effect, is a "neighborhood" area. At the very least, from what I gather in my limited exposure to especially "southern" CMA is that the outlook to fighting, philosophies and theories are intertwined. I beleive these men thought very much alike. I think this alludes to the vacuum analogy Ten Tigers was taking about, in that people unattached by very few or no threads at all, because of their environment, would develop similar foundations on basics of what they used to develop their own independent fighting ideals.

The styles of the sifu mentioned above are very distinct, but I belevie the threads of the commonalities, make them more similar than different.