Variable Resistance: Upping the Training Ante

[Knifefighter]

According to everyone who knew him, Lee thought forms were absolute and complete B.S.

[Siu Lum Fighter]

That was the conclusion that he came to after years of practicing forms and not having a desire to remember them. To each his own. I actually completely disagree with him on that point and I would've loved to debate with him about it if he was still around (I'll bet the next post is going to be something like, "he would've kicked the snot out of you if he was still alive!!")

[yenhoi]

The idea of JKD is not "a little bit of this, a little bit of that."

As pointed out, Lee had to basically completely immerse himself in various types of training, like forms- for hours, days, years, before much later he was able to reject them as something he considered useless to his personal training.

JKD is a process of accumulation and evaluation. Im not suggesting that each person must practice forms for many years before they can figure out for them self that forms have very little value when it comes to training to really fight- but long hours, days, and years of training lots of different types of things are necessary for a person to really understand what is useful and what is useless to their individual training.

Flavor and styles of fighting do not exist. Only us individuals actually train and fight. Whatever each of us calls or classifies our own training its still ultimately a individual thing. No one kicks someone else with a Bak Sil Lum purple flower kick.... you would use your leg or a piece of it, whatever name makes you feel cool. Its just plain silly to suggest that to learn how to train yourself and fight that you would have to complete some other persons strict curriculum complete with various names and labels in order to become skillful.

Dragon whips its tail!

[Siu Lum Fighter]

I didn't say you have to learn a whole, complete curriculum in order to learn how to train yourself or to fight. what I'm saying is that to learn the so called "essence" of a style you must train in that style for a while. Yes, it does come down to individuals but you can't tell me there isn't any difference between arts like Karate and Wing Chun. When we're talking about the "essence" or "flavor" of an art form we're talking about all of the habits and particular techniques that are inherent in that style. You can't tell me there aren't any differences in methodologies and styles, just like you can't tell me that a Muay Thai fighter is going to fight the same way somebody who uses ninjutsu would.

[yenhoi]

Fighters from the same school/family/system rarely even look the same, let alone fight the same. Obviously people training the same list of techniques using the same training methods will have similarities in application and appearance. I am not telling anyone that there aren't any differences in methodologies across the millions of schools/families/systems. Thai fighters from the same school dont even use the same exact set of techniques or training methods and they dont all look the same when they fight or have the same habits. Its not a style/art thing when people fight or train to fight.

Of course there are differences, which is why the JKD method is to accumulate and evaluate: individuals should not accept a strict list-curriculum just because it is style/art/flavor/because master said so. The piecemeal idea of styles is fake and false. Instead people should become immersed in different training methods - some will be found in many different systems and others in smaller groups. Regardless of what list of techniques or fighting formula someone hands us, it will always be up to ourselves to do the hard work and put the time in, and that makes the very idea of canned flavorful tasty styles, fake and wrong.

Wing Chun on one side of the world looks, feels, is trained and is applied very differently then Wing Chun on the other side. There is only very basic common elements that I would agree remain intact and make up the "essence" of that system, but forms have nothing at all to do with that, and either does the name or any of the other labels and definitions found within that type of system. Other systems are able to transmit this stuff that dreams are made of without heavy emphasis on form work, and so are Chinese and other eastern systems.

[Siu Lum Fighter]

Perhaps this debate is really over whether or not a student is going to allow themselves to trust the wisdom and decision making of their sifu when it comes to how they should train. For a period of time during Bruce's life he went along with his elders and his sifu's methods. At a certain point though, he began to renounce their methods and he didn't believe that any one of the myriad traditional styles could be 100% effective (this happened after the WJM fight I might add). One reason for this total perspective change could be because Bruce had a real problem with authority. He had a general disdain for authority figures, no matter who they were. when it came to his elders in the martial arts community, it seems as if he was trying to prove them all wrong.

[SevenStar]

I didn't say you have to learn a whole, complete curriculum in order to learn how to train yourself or to fight. what I'm saying is that to learn the so called "essence" of a style you must train in that style for a while. Yes, it does come down to individuals but you can't tell me there isn't any difference between arts like Karate and Wing Chun. When we're talking about the "essence" or "flavor" of an art form we're talking about all of the habits and particular techniques that are inherent in that style. You can't tell me there aren't any differences in methodologies and styles, just like you can't tell me that a Muay Thai fighter is going to fight the same way somebody who uses ninjutsu would.

there really is no essence, as each fighter is different. A buddy and co-teacher of mine (we now teach at the same school) have trained in ALL of the same schools except one (when I went to longfist, he went to kenpo) since 1996. We are the same height and same build. We have trained the same styles. We fight TOTALLY different. My limbs are long for my height, so I prefer outboxing techniques, even though I was primarily trained as an infighter. he has shorter limbs. I am stronger than him, but he is more elusive. our different attributes dictate how we fight, not the fact that we were trained the same way under the same teachers.

I use the jab, cross, long hook, lead leg roundhouse, etc. primarily. He OTOH dashes in and uses hooks and uppercuts. I prefer sweeping takedowns and pickups, whereas he uses typical "short man" throws, like ippon seionage, which I hate.

Who is to say what the "essence" of our styles are - is it my jkd/muay thai/judo/bjj or is it his, even though they came from the exact same teachers?

My karate teacher sidestepped ALOT and loved leg kicks. He was short, so he would dash inside and use body hooks and uppercuts, along with throws like seionage. If you ever watched him, you would swear he trained muay thai, but he did not. Once again, where is the "essence"? he had more in common with a thai fighter than most karate guys, even though he's never trained muay thai.

[Siu Lum Fighter]

Maybe in the world of MMA or kickboxing the lines get blurred. since everyone trains in a variety of different styles you can't really pigeon hole any one particular fighter. But even Dan Inosanto had said in this interview that Bruce Lee was trying to find the so-called "essence" in each style:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=PfXfc1CYnCw

Just look at this video of Taijutsu...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=iAgxe9katPc

Are you going to tell me Muai Thai fighters are liable to fight like that?

I've seen guys who fight with Hsing Yi. They fight with a san ti stance and you can see them using the 5 elements when they fight. These are trademarks of that style. Somebody who's trained in TKD all their life is not going to fight like that. Here's a Shaolin monk vs. a TKD guy...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Z4N9NLiCV...elated&search=

Their individual styles are obviously Hsing Yi/Shaolin boxing and Tai Kwon Do'ish. I'm sorry, but I just can't buy that there's no such thing as the essence of a style. Why don't we all study Karate and call it Tai Chi then?

[Vash]

Why don't we all study Karate and call it Tai Chi then?

Training methods. Goals.

More tomorrow. Tired now.

[yenhoi]

How about two videos of two different Taijutsu guys from the same school?

[Vash]

and focusing more on methods of training, ttt.

I would be particularly interested in hearing from the more experienced instructors now frequenting these parts.

The "chart" I initially presented is a rough diagram of my club's training paradigm. Seeing others' and the manner in which the different resistance levels are used would be very educational.