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Thread: Structure Study Project

  1. #1

    Structure Study Project

    Hi Guys

    I am working of a study project at this time.

    I looking at the structural development of Wing Chun.

    Also an indepth look at the structure system of Chu Sau Lei wing chun.

    Within this study I will look at the structure of many different martial arts as well.

    I will like to connect the key idea of what is structure.

    Part of this study requires open debate on these points. This will happen more once I have produced more work to show.

    To start with I would like people views on a few topics.


    PLEASE NOTE.

    ONLY POST - if you can give your full name and short background of which arts you train in.

    and

    please note any posts may or may not be used within my project. If so your name will be quoted. If you do not want that to happen, then please do not post.

    All view points are important and will be welcome.

    If you want to add random comment, then please don't waste your own time.

    Many thanks

    Alan

    www.alanorr.com

    First Question :

    What does the term 'Structure' Mean to your art?

  2. #2
    Hi Victor

    Thanks for taking time to add your method.

    If anyone else would like to add their views of what they do then please do.

    Second question for all:

    How does your structure produce striking power?


    Third Question for all:

    How does your structure deal with the power of your opponent? ie transfer of weight or movement.

    You views are welcome for my project.

    My best

    Alan Orr

    www.alanorr.com

    ps Please note this is open to all arts. Knifefighter you view on grappling structures would be helpful. Full name is required and your view may be published as part of my project.

  3. #3
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Orr View Post
    Hi Victor

    Thanks for taking time to add your method.

    If anyone else would like to add their views of what they do then please do.

    Second question for all:

    How does your structure produce striking power?


    Third Question for all:

    How does your structure deal with the power of your opponent? ie transfer of weight or movement.

    You views are welcome for my project.

    My best

    Alan Orr

    www.alanorr.com

    ps Please note this is open to all arts. Knifefighter you view on grappling structures would be helpful. Full name is required and your view may be published as part of my project.
    I would like to, for now, answer the second question (hope this makes sense):

    Because of the feet shoulder-width apart, toes in and sitting in the stance quite low (until there is a fist distance between the knees - not pushed together...but sat in), the pelvis in neutral and the elbows in and down:

    I feel that my right fist and arm are one rod. Therefore, all force is coming from my elbow, attached to my hip and finally attached to my foot.(right arm, right hip, right foot).

    The power is generated from the ground.

    The power is accessible because of the ability to relax before and after a motion (what my immediately family considers ging).

    Lastly, I believe that I am person, between heaven and earth. Therefore the power of God or Source connects with me from above (Du20 if you like), while the ground (at K1) supports me. Intention is brought to my elbow to make it the engine or driving force. Intention for anything to happen is key.

    At times, as well, I like to play around with the ging mostly found in Bak Mei or some families of Crane(the hunching of the back). I find that this expansion/contraction can be very useful to generate power in certain situations.

    I hope this helps. Some might be "practical" and some might be a little "esoteric," but I know your Sifu does Chinese Medicine. If you have q's...just ask.

    Background:
    Moy Yat-Sunny Tang-Joeseph Boychuk-Dave Harris-Me
    My Wing Chun is part of my Sifu's innovation and my own after years in the following MA: Kenpo Karate, Tai Chi, Qigong, Short Stint in TWC.
    I am also a Doctor of Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine.

    Best,
    Kenton Sefcik Dip.Ac., Dip.TCM
    “An ounce of action is worth a ton of theory.” – Friedrich Engels

  4. #4
    Hi Kenton

    Many thanks for your reply.

    Don't worry about being to esoteric, I practice Chinese Medicine as well.

    I'm not looking for answers as such. This is part of my project. I need to have lots of points of view from other people.

    Then when I write my thesis I have different view points to refer too.

    I may come back at times for more opinons from peoples view points if thats okay.

    My next question will be a good one for you to answer, due to your background.

    Question four:

    How would you explain the physical forces used within your structure to control power? In a western point of view and/or chinese medicine Internal /Qi Gong view point?

    Again thank you for taking time to add to this work

    My best

    Alan

    www.alanorr.com

  5. #5
    Join Date
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    Richmond, VA
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    I haven't posted in ages, but this topic is one that interests me.

    Name: John Kang

    Art(s): My primary Wing Chun lineage is from Sifu Lo Man Kam, but I have been heavily influenced by the approaches of Sifu Duncan Leung via Sifu Gorden Lu; by Sifu Francis Fong via Sifu Akko Nishimura; and by Sifu Ken Chung and his students via friendly exchanges. While I still follow my Sifu's core forms and approach to Chi Sao learning, he does not particularly approve of how I apply it; nor do my views on structure necessarily reflect his.

    I previously learned Northern Shaolin, Yang Taiji and Shorinji Kempo; and have also done some basic cross training in Western Boxing, Muay Thai and BJJ.

    Other note: like some other posters in this topic, I am also a practitioner of Chinese Medicine.


    In my humble opinion, the theory of power generation in Wing Chun comes from some of the Kuits:

    "Power Comes from the Earth."
    "Waist and Horse Together."
    "Use Form to Complement Hands."
    "Fist Comes from the Heart."

    I think this is the meaning of Structure, and that structure embodies several concepts-- Alignment, Rooting, and Linkage.

    Alignment, emodied by "Waist and Horse together" and "Use Form to Complement Hands" has to do with your own body's alignment, isolated from a partner or opponent. It is lining up your bones and joints-- the knuckles, wrist, elbow, shoulder, spine, pelvic girdle, knees, and ankles-- so that it can become relatively a passive conduit to the ground. Some key components are:

    1. Sun-Character fist: The third knuckle lines up with the radius, the fifth nuckle with the ulna.

    2. Elbow pointing downwards

    3. Shoulders down

    4. Hips tilted forward to straighten out the lumbar spine

    5. Knees pointing inward

    Rooting connects your Alignment to the ground. It is the concept of "Li Cong Di Qi" -- power comes from the earth. When you hit something, rooting combined with structure diverts the recoil (i.e., Newton's 3rd Law) downward instead of backward.

    While Alignment looks inward at one's self, Linkage looks outward toward others. It is how you connect your center to your opponent's center. It is how the muscle and connective tissue surrounding the joints and bones support your passive, isolated structure. At the same time, you can "unlink" to strike hit with localized, relaxed muscle if you do not have optimal alignment or if you want to prevent your opponent from linking to your own center.

    All these concepts integrate to form power. But power is only one aspect of training, because without a delivery system, it is meaningless (like all those Nuclear Warheads we have in silos that supposedly won't even get off the ground). The delivery system comes from other training methods-- Chi Sao partially as a tool of making your structure dynamic with regard to your partner's; conditioning to harden the bones, strengthen the muscles and ligaments, hone reflexes and build endurance; sparring to make the skills applicable; tactics to guide your sparring, etc. Therefore, I personally think that Structure is something that does not have to be perfect from the begininng-- it is something that you will always improve at as you train.
    Last edited by aelward; 05-14-2007 at 10:56 AM.
    JK-
    "Sex on TV doesn't hurt unless you fall off."

  6. #6
    Hi John

    Many thanks for your post.

    You guys are all bringing in good thoughts on the subjects.

    My best

    Alan

    ps If you guys have time think about the others questions as well.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
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    New Jersey/NYC
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    reply to first question

    First Question :

    What does the term 'Structure' Mean to your art


    reply-- "structure" in the art we practice means one's ability to use any technique such as a Tan sao ,Bong Sao, etc to deflect,obsorb,hold skink whatever without ussing any physical forse but relying on body machanics to achieve the same results that someone can do using alot of physical power.

    Michael Mc Ilwrath
    http://www.facebook.com/sifumcilwrath
    http://www.youtube.com/user/sifumcilwrath



    There is no REAL secrets in Wing Chun, but because the forms are conceptual you have to know how to decipher the information..That's the secret..

  8. #8
    Hi Victor

    Thank you for taking time to add more.


    Hi Michael

    Thanks for your input as well.


    My best

    Alan


    www.alanorr.com

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Canada
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    Quote Originally Posted by aelward View Post
    I haven't posted in ages, but this topic is one that interests me.

    Name: John Kang

    Art(s): My primary Wing Chun lineage is from Sifu Lo Man Kam, but I have been heavily influenced by the approaches of Sifu Duncan Leung via Sifu Gorden Lu; by Sifu Francis Fong via Sifu Akko Nishimura; and by Sifu Ken Chung and his students via friendly exchanges. While I still follow my Sifu's core forms and approach to Chi Sao learning, he does not particularly approve of how I apply it.

    I previously learned Northern Shaolin, Yang Taiji and Shorinji Kempo; and have also done some basic cross training in Western Boxing, Muay Thai and BJJ.

    Other note: like some other posters in this topic, I am also a practitioner of Chinese Medicine.


    In my humble opinion, the theory of power generation in Wing Chun comes from some of the Kuits:

    "Power Comes from the Earth."
    "Waist and Horse Together."
    "Use Form to Complement Hands."
    "Fist Comes from the Heart."

    I think this is the meaning of Structure, and that structure embodies several concepts-- Alignment, Rooting, and Linkage.

    Alignment, emodied by "Waist and Horse together" and "Use Form to Complement Hands" has to do with your own body's alignment, isolated from a partner or opponent. It is lining up your bones and joints-- the knuckles, wrist, elbow, shoulder, spine, pelvic girdle, knees, and ankles-- so that it can become relatively a passive conduit to the ground. Some key components are:

    1. Sun-Character fist: The third knuckle lines up with the radius, the fifth nuckle with the ulna.

    2. Elbow pointing downwards

    3. Shoulders down

    4. Hips tilted forward to straighten out the lumbar spine

    5. Knees pointing inward

    Rooting connects your Alignment to the ground. It is the concept of "Li Cong Di Qi" -- power comes from the earth. When you hit something, rooting combined with structure diverts the recoil (i.e., Newton's 3rd Law) downward instead of backward.

    While Alignment looks inward at one's self, Linkage looks outward toward others. It is how you connect your center to your opponent's center. It is how the muscle and connective tissue surrounding the joints and bones support your passive, isolated structure. At the same time, you can "unlink" to strike hit with localized, relaxed muscle if you do not have optimal alignment or if you want to prevent your opponent from linking to your own center.

    All these concepts integrate to form power. But power is only one aspect of training, because without a delivery system, it is meaningless (like all those Nuclear Warheads we have in silos that supposedly won't even get off the ground). The delivery system comes from other training methods-- Chi Sao partially as a tool of making your structure dynamic with regard to your partner's; conditioning to harden the bones, strengthen the bones and ligaments, hone reflexes and build endurance; sparring to make the skills applicable; tactics to guide your sparring, etc. Therefore, I personally think that Structure is something that does not have to be perfect from the begininng-- it is something that you will always improve at as you train.
    Alan, I'm going to have a hard time adding my 2 cents to this one.

    Very good post and I concur.

    Hope I can add more soon,
    Kenton Sefcik
    “An ounce of action is worth a ton of theory.” – Friedrich Engels

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    West Oz
    Posts
    125
    Alan, in looking at other styles, you might want to look into some of the 'internal' chinese arts and check out their take on structure. It would be interesting to see how they related to your chu sau lei method.

    An excellent example was recently posted in the Taijiquan/IMA forum here by Jay_Bee of Dia Shi Xinyiquan Grandmaster Yan Rong Chang performing Si Ba in super slo-mo. An incredible example of Dai style shen fa.


    Here is my shiye demonstrating, Dai Xin Yi's, Si Ba (4 strikes). I hope you all like it.

    As I mentioned my shiye is available for seminars, private lessons and training camps in China. Plese email me on Jingang@xtra.co.nz (Jon Dyer) for more details.

    Dai Xin Yi Si Ba (4 strikes) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_ZiH0hsbXM

    Dai Xin Yi San Guin (3 stick) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdjD8nVriss

    Jay_Bee (aka Jon Dyer).
    For some background on Dai Xinyi:

    http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/xyxy/daitech1.html

    http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/xyxy/daihistory.html

    http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/xyxy/sanquan.html

    Hope that helps.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Richmond, VA
    Posts
    295
    I think my first post incorporates question 2 and 3, but to expound on 3:

    An opponent's power can come from different directions, and there are different solutions based on circumstance.

    1. Unlinking - against superior structural strength, relaxing one or more joints to prevent the oppponent from connecting his center to mine.

    2. Sinking - against rigidity, using my superior structure to guide his force downward.

    3. Redirecting - using the structure of the arms to change the direction of your opponent's force-- i.e, bong sao.

    4. Rotating - using the structure of the core to change the direction of your opponent's force.

    5. Stepping - of course keeping in mind the maxim "When you move, you have already lost the center," but sometimes, rotation isn't enough. You may have to fall back into a stronger stance or step forward into a stronger stance relative to your opponent's structure.


    For question 4, how to explain the processes happening: You can do it in either modern applied science, or in Chinese cosmology. I personally believe they are two different paradigms that explain the same phenomena, and one's existence does not preclude the existence of the other.

    For example, Western Medicine talks about Immunity, TCM talks about Wei Qi. Both describe similar phenomena.

    From a martial point of view, one might use torque to generate more striking power-- it is the same as Yin becoming Yang. Or, solid low stances can defeat rapid strikes like Earth Controls Water.
    JK-
    "Sex on TV doesn't hurt unless you fall off."

  12. #12
    Hi Finny

    Yes, I am doing that as well.

    Your links are cool, Thank you for taking time to post them.

    My best

    Alan

    Hi aelward

    Some excellent points.

    I do need a full name if I am to use any quotes.

    My best

    Alan

    www.alanorr.com

  13. #13
    Hi Guys

    Any opinons on -

    Question four:

    How would you explain the physical forces used within your structure to control power? In a western point of view and/or chinese medicine Internal /Qi Gong view point?


    Maybe the wresten mechanics of using power?

    My best

    Alan

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Ontario
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    The one thing I have learned over the years in the MA and studying different systems and how the produce speed and power is to never apply STATIC principles to a DYNAMIC system.

  15. #15
    Hi sanjuro_ronin

    You are right.

    First we must look at the frame work then how it is used.

    Why not give you insights to this

    My best

    Alan

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