The triangle of power

[SevenStar]

I was just thinking that if I haven't learned something in 5 years that I could learn somewhere else in 1, then I doubt the next 5 years is suddenly going to make me that much better than the 1 year guy that can kick my @ss (who, hypotheticaly, is also training hard this whole time). Why is a punch or a side kick in TCMA so much more complicated than in Thai kickboxing that it takes 5 times as long to learn? I understand you get a lot more 2-3 day/week hobbyists in CMA, and people that just don't care about being able to stand toe to toe with a competitive fighter so obviously they're not going to learn as fast... But for the more full time people that want to develop good fighting skill, I just don't get what the problem is that it would take so long. Even taking into account the form work, you should still be training the conditioning and sparring. Forms aren't that long.

it's not the technique, it's the training. forms, weapons, iron palm, qigong... How often do you spar? things like that. Here is about how my classes were going at the time I stopped cma:

warm up
technique practice
forms

this was over the span of a 1.5 hour class. we had qi/neigong classes that were seperate, and if we were lucky, we sparred about 30 mins once per week. Now, bear in mind when I first started there, we sparred pretty much every class.

In judo/bjj/muay thai, this is our breakdown:

warm up
technique drills (usually with contact and pads)
sparring
ab-work

about 30 mins of each class is sparring. so, you are sparring AND drilling with resistance during every class. That is where the difference lies. even if you only train three days per week, you are sparring for 1.5 hours per week.

[sanjuro_ronin]

it's not the technique, it's the training. forms, weapons, iron palm, qigong... How often do you spar? things like that. Here is about how my classes were going at the time I stopped cma:

warm up
technique practice
forms

this was over the span of a 1.5 hour class. we had qi/neigong classes that were seperate, and if we were lucky, we sparred about 30 mins once per week. Now, bear in mind when I first started there, we sparred pretty much every class.

In judo/bjj/muay thai, this is our breakdown:

warm up
technique drills (usually with contact and pads)
sparring
ab-work

about 30 mins of each class is sparring. so, you are sparring AND drilling with resistance during every class. That is where the difference lies. even if you only train three days per week, you are sparring for 1.5 hours per week.

And that truly makes all the difference in the world, more so as a beginner as opposed to the "maintence" level.
It doesn't mean you wil be a fighter or even be able to handle yourself if the time comes, but you certainly will have a better chance.

[SevenStar]

I think that the increase in bone density makes IP unique compared to HB work.
And most do HB with gloves on top of it.

Think the conditioned feet of a bare foot runner VS someone that has done the same amount of running with running shoes.

I would think that any impact work would increase bone density, not just iron palm. I hit bags bare handed, but no longer do iron palm training.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I would think that any impact work would increase bone density, not just iron palm. I hit bags bare handed, but no longer do iron palm training.

Having boxed for years and hit the bag accordingly and done makiwara work for years and having started IP for less than a year, I can say this, its a world of difference.

I even have the x-rays to prove it !


Well, the technician has them....

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Having boxed for years and hit the bag accordingly and done makiwara work for years and having started IP for less than a year, I can say this, its a world of difference.

I even have the x-rays to prove it !


Well, the technician has them....

Reply]
That is because Iron palm uses a movable medium, and the herbs. It's vastly superior to just doing bag work, HOWEVER, Bag work is still impact training, and you still develop a good deal of Iron Fist by doing it...enough to get the job done at least.

[golden arhat]

That's an interesting list.

I'd substitute Judo or western wrestling for BJJ, and I think lkfmdc would argue that the styles taking a long time to learn to be reasonably effective is a product of ****-poor training methods, not an inherent flaw.

i thought the point of having "mixed" martial arts was that u took the best **** and mixed it up
this is its advantage (1 among many mind you, but i wont go into that)
so judo western wrestling and bjj can be taught as 1

[sanjuro_ronin]

Having boxed for years and hit the bag accordingly and done makiwara work for years and having started IP for less than a year, I can say this, its a world of difference.

I even have the x-rays to prove it !


Well, the technician has them....

Reply]
That is because Iron palm uses a movable medium, and the herbs. It's vastly superior to just doing bag work, HOWEVER, Bag work is still impact training, and you still develop a good deal of Iron Fist by doing it...enough to get the job done at least.

More than enough in some cases.

[sanjuro_ronin]

i thought the point of having "mixed" martial arts was that u took the best **** and mixed it up
this is its advantage (1 among many mind you, but i wont go into that)
so judo western wrestling and bjj can be taught as 1

MMA is great as a ruleset for sport combat but at THIS stage, not so much as a "martial art", it produces more "jack of all trades" rather than "master of mutiple trades".

[Shaolinlueb]

flying monkey. i think thats an insult to tma and i wouldnt call yourself a tma guy if you would teach other things right out of the bat.

tma is great for defense. sports fighting is great for in ring too. if you keep teh training simple and stuff then the pay off will be the same if not greater then the mma, bjj, and mauy thai training. i cant believe i read that stuff, especially from you.

[BraveMonkey]

A note on sparring: Although sparring is an important part of training. Pushing students to spar too early just re-enforces sloppy habits.

All human being have basic fighting instincts, but most of them are inferior to trained techniques unless you are a huge MF. Charging in blindly and swinging like crazy vs. running away or curling into a fetus position are examples of human fighting instinct.

To spar or fight well a person has to get passed the base reflexive responses and hone propper tools. Too much honing and the edge is too weak, but not enough honing and the edge is too dull, but honed it must be or it's a chunk of metal and not a blade.

Too often students are eager to mix it up so they go in and the adrenaline washes away everything they've learned. At least the most basic techniques need to be learned and learned well before they are applied. This can be done through bag-work, shadow boxing, and slow sparring. I'm not suggesting that students should train for years before they face some active resistance, but going it slow at first seems the wiser course.

[sanjuro_ronin]

flying monkey. i think thats an insult to tma and i wouldnt call yourself a tma guy if you would teach other things right out of the bat.

tma is great for defense. sports fighting is great for in ring too. if you keep teh training simple and stuff then the pay off will be the same if not greater then the mma, bjj, and mauy thai training. i cant believe i read that stuff, especially from you.

All the arts he chose were TMA.
While BJJ is pretty "new", its about the same age as some of the newer karate systems and does have more of the TMA characteristics.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Agreed, but you can still get them in to some sort of live training almost day one. for example, i have a twoman footwork drill that can be simplified into a basic response drill. You have one move forward, and the other moves back wards. drill for a bit. The go to one moves forward, the other moves to the side.

Once you have them doing those two drills well, you start having one move forward, and the other choses to go backwards, or to the side. The one moving forward must now track the one retreating and follow thier more random directional choices.

You can add some circle foot work to that too, giving you a 3rd dimension.

Now, once they have that, you add a bit of variety by haveing the first move forward, and the second uses either a backward retreat, moving sideways, or circling followed by suddenly changing directions and moving forward on the first student, who now has to match his oponents timming and move back, to the side or circle.

It then becomes a game to see how well the students can react to each other's incoming and retreating forces.

as time goes on, you can add a jab, or simple attacks, and later counters to that that have an ever increasing level of difficulty. in the end it becomes free sparring at a very early age.

I used to do this when I taught the kids. I had to find a way to get them sparring fast (12 weeks from thier first day), so i broke it all down and made this method up . It was a huge success, and my guys allways did extremely well in the little point comps compared to all the other competitors who had the same experience.

It turned out to be a great way to get students working in an alive fashion, almost day one, without the typical break down into flailing.

[SevenStar]

Having boxed for years and hit the bag accordingly and done makiwara work for years and having started IP for less than a year, I can say this, its a world of difference.

I even have the x-rays to prove it !


Well, the technician has them....

looking at that perspective, sure. But I am only talking about increased bone density. ANY impact or weight bearing should increase bone density.

[sanjuro_ronin]

looking at that perspective, sure. But I am only talking about increased bone density. ANY impact or weight bearing should increase bone density.

Sure, the extent seems to be greater with IP.

Quick summation:
I dislocated my ring finger on my right hand a couple of years ago, got it x-rayed of course.
Started IP almost a year ago, at about the 6 month mark I asked my doc if I could get an x-ray of my right hand to "check on my finger" that had been dislocated.
I spoke to the technician and he compared the pre-IP x-ray of that hand with the current one and he noticed a "slight increase in density".
Granted that, it was AFTER I asked him to look better at it, it wasn't noticiable in the "holly crap dude what happend to your hand" kind of way.

[golden arhat]

MMA is great as a ruleset for sport combat but at THIS stage, not so much as a "martial art", it produces more "jack of all trades" rather than "master of mutiple trades".

it doesnt produce a jack of all trades

its all taught as 1

and we train longer and harder and more often than you do so before u say we dont know anything
or that we are just brawlers or untidy or "jacks of all trades"
how about u take in to account that tma has so many people who collect forms and go from school to school calling themselves 8th dan in this that and the other

i'd say it was the other way around