The downfall of Traditional Gung Fu

[jmd161]

I've been thinking alot about this lately, and i wnted to see some of your opinions.

First, i've always presented myself as a fighter....not for sport....but for survival. So i too am likely to pay attention to modern martial trends, but i like to stay traditional........now until recently i had a different game plan on my teaching. but this question popped up im my mind while driving the other day.


since mma has exploded as it has, i was wondering if anyone felt that mma will become to downfall to traditional martial arts? i no longer teach forms first like the old days. but if a tcma school isn't keeping up with the times.....does that mean that style will ultimately become extinct because of mma?

I think MMA has hurt TCMA, but TCMA has needed this shake-up/wake up call for some time now. For too long any Johnny Come lately has been able to open a TMA school, and with out any resistance pump out crap and belt factories. Real hard core people have since weeded these fakes out, but TMA has payed a huge price for ignoring these fakes for so long. There are very few real deal TMA people around that not only know how to fight, but that actually know what they're doing, and how to teach it.

Most TMA people are just carbon copies of forms/katas they learned from their teacher, who learned from their teacher, and so on....To find an actual TMA teacher that's a fighter, you'd prolly have a better chance of winning the lottery. Then when you do find those old school guys, they're so set in their ways, that ,they run off the average student. For the longest time kung fu was about the movies and how pretty it looked, so noone minded that they were'nt learning any fighting apps as long as you kept feeding them forms. The masses seemed to believe that they'd somehow become this great fighting machine with the more forms they learned....

Well, introduce MMA and people start to wake up and see, that they've been lied to for so long, but instead of admitting it, they close their eyes and try to tell you it's too deadly for the ring or that someone would get hurt or maimed, if it was used. Or that I took kung fu just to get in shape not to fight with. I think people became so wrapped up in lies, that they didn't know where the truth ended and the lies started anymore. Truth is it doesn't take anyone any longer in TMA to be a good fighter as it does within MMA, it's all in how you're taught. If you're taught from a fighting perspective, then you'll be a fighter, if you're taught forms???

Then you'll be a performer!

Just my .02 cents.

jeff

[David Jamieson]

I think MMA has hurt TCMA, but TCMA has needed this shake-up/wake up call for some time now. For too long any Johnny Come lately has been able to open a TMA school, and with out any resistance pump out crap and belt factories. Real hard core people have since weeded these fakes out, but TMA has payed a huge price for ignoring these fakes for so long. There are very few real deal TMA people around that not only know how to fight, but that actually know what they're doing, and how to teach it.

Most TMA people are just carbon copies of forms/katas they learned from their teacher, who learned from their teacher, and so on....To find an actual TMA teacher that's a fighter, you'd prolly have a better chance of winning the lottery. Then when you do find those old school guys, they're so set in their ways, that ,they run off the average student. For the longest time kung fu was about the movies and how pretty it looked, so noone minded that they were'nt learning any fighting apps as long as you kept feeding them forms. The masses seemed to believe that they'd somehow become this great fighting machine with the more forms they learned....

Well, introduce MMA and people start to wake up and see, that they've been lied to for so long, but instead of admitting it, they close their eyes and try to tell you it's too deadly for the ring or that someone would get hurt or maimed, if it was used. Or that I took kung fu just to get in shape not to fight with. I think people became so wrapped up in lies, that they didn't know where the truth ended and the lies started anymore. Truth is it doesn't take anyone any longer in TMA to be a good fighter as it does within MMA, it's all in how you're taught. If you're taught from a fighting perspective, then you'll be a fighter, if you're taught forms???

Then you'll be a performer!

Just my .02 cents.

jeff

*** word ***

[Infrazael]

Just fight . . . as long as you're training to fight it doesn't matter if you know some forms or not. There are tons of crappy MMA guys out there too . . . yes they exist as well lol. Not every MMA guy is out to become the next Ultimate Fighter . . . alot of normal, laid back guys like every Karate Dojo or Kung Fu Kwoon you go to.

[Infrazael]

I think MMA has hurt TCMA, but TCMA has needed this shake-up/wake up call for some time now. For too long any Johnny Come lately has been able to open a TMA school, and with out any resistance pump out crap and belt factories. Real hard core people have since weeded these fakes out, but TMA has payed a huge price for ignoring these fakes for so long. There are very few real deal TMA people around that not only know how to fight, but that actually know what they're doing, and how to teach it.

Most TMA people are just carbon copies of forms/katas they learned from their teacher, who learned from their teacher, and so on....To find an actual TMA teacher that's a fighter, you'd prolly have a better chance of winning the lottery. Then when you do find those old school guys, they're so set in their ways, that ,they run off the average student. For the longest time kung fu was about the movies and how pretty it looked, so noone minded that they were'nt learning any fighting apps as long as you kept feeding them forms. The masses seemed to believe that they'd somehow become this great fighting machine with the more forms they learned....

Well, introduce MMA and people start to wake up and see, that they've been lied to for so long, but instead of admitting it, they close their eyes and try to tell you it's too deadly for the ring or that someone would get hurt or maimed, if it was used. Or that I took kung fu just to get in shape not to fight with. I think people became so wrapped up in lies, that they didn't know where the truth ended and the lies started anymore. Truth is it doesn't take anyone any longer in TMA to be a good fighter as it does within MMA, it's all in how you're taught. If you're taught from a fighting perspective, then you'll be a fighter, if you're taught forms???

Then you'll be a performer!

Just my .02 cents.

jeff

Nice writeup Jeff.

[SevenStar]

Just fight . . . as long as you're training to fight it doesn't matter if you know some forms or not. There are tons of crappy MMA guys out there too . . . yes they exist as well lol. Not every MMA guy is out to become the next Ultimate Fighter . . . alot of normal, laid back guys like every Karate Dojo or Kung Fu Kwoon you go to.

sure there are. But at the same time, those guys who don't compete are receiving the same training as the guys who do - which is still placing them above those who don't fight at all.

[secretgecko]

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...846#post768846

[stout]

I am surprised by the interest in MMA. Whats going to be nexted? Training to be gladiators in Coliseums? fighting against Lions? Where is the Art? Kung Fu is not just about Killing, it's a civilised endeavour. When you spar with someone, you quickly realised how good you are against your opponent, why need to draw blood and bring it to the floor? You are bringing MA back hundreds of years back to the old cavemen times.

What ****es me off, is the lack of fighting training in most kung fu schools. We have so much technique and yet master few of them. Look at kickboxing or boxing, they use very few technique but know them so well. When we get into the ring, most try and fight like kickboxers. It seems really tough now to find akung fu school which can teach you how to fight. Then all we have is people who can do the artistic side of it, such as beautiful forms. We need learn how to fight too! But there seems to be very few kung fu master who can do teach you how to do that cause few of them fought alot......**** me off, I have to go to a kick boxing club to learn to fight, becuase there isn't a kung fu school that caters for it.

[lkfmdc]

Kung Fu is not just about Killing, it's a civilised endeavour.

I spent like 20 years with a pile of top TCMA people, I'd hardly call the traditional Mo Lum "civilized"

[Knifefighter]

When you spar with someone, you quickly realised how good you are against your opponent, why need to draw blood and bring it to the floor?

When you spar against someone who is skilled, you quickly realise how hard it is to hurt another skilled fighter.

why need to draw blood and bring it to the floor?.

Bringing the fight to the ground is a valid fighting tactic. Competing and doing so is how one gets good in this realm.

I have to go to a kick boxing club to learn to fight, becuase there isn't a kung fu school that caters for it.

A kung fu school that taught you to fight would look pretty much like kickboxing or MMA. That's pretty much the way that any CMA fighter who is any good fights.

[stout]

you refering to how kung fu was at one time very much associated gangsters?

[Knifefighter]

Look at kickboxing or boxing, they use very few technique but know them so well.

And therein lies the key to becoming an effective fighter.

When we get into the ring, most try and fight like kickboxers. .

There's a reason why they do this. Because that is what works under real-time, pressure situations.

[bredmond812]

I am surprised by the interest in MMA. Whats going to be nexted? Training to be gladiators in Coliseums? fighting against Lions? Where is the Art? Kung Fu is not just about Killing, it's a civilised endeavour. When you spar with someone, you quickly realised how good you are against your opponent, why need to draw blood and bring it to the floor? You are bringing MA back hundreds of years back to the old cavemen times.

What ****es me off, is the lack of fighting training in most kung fu schools. We have so much technique and yet master few of them. Look at kickboxing or boxing, they use very few technique but know them so well. When we get into the ring, most try and fight like kickboxers. It seems really tough now to find akung fu school which can teach you how to fight. Then all we have is people who can do the artistic side of it, such as beautiful forms. We need learn how to fight too! But there seems to be very few kung fu master who can do teach you how to do that cause few of them fought alot......**** me off, I have to go to a kick boxing club to learn to fight, becuase there isn't a kung fu school that caters for it.

Unless I am reading your post wrong, you seem to contradict yourself. On the one hand, you talk about how kung fu is supposed to be, as you say, "civilized". On the other hand, you show concern that you cant learn how to fight at a kung fu school.

Similarly, you complaihn that MMA is not civilized, but continue to say that kickboxing is.

What are you trying to say?

And when was kung fu associated with gangsters. There has always been gangsters who practiced kung fu and there always will be as long as there are gangsters. Kung fu was never a "gangster style". Kungfu is too broad to be that.
The only thing i can think of is during the Qing dynasty when there were many rebel groups that trained kung fu, and the boxer rebellion. Also many of these groups eventually transitioned from rebel groups to crime groups. Perhaps that is what you mean.

[stout]

knifefighter in your experience, are you saying that 90% of kung fu technique is useless in the ring?

From what I heard CLF did pretty well against thai boxers in the 60/70s. How they fought I don't know. Just wondering if it's a case of people conforming to the majority and not believing in their own Kung Fu. Or maybe, their Kung Fu is genuinely lacking. ie some styles don't have good KO techniques.

From what I know in kung fu, correct if wrong, take downs in kung fu is a lead to another finishing move, we never intend to fight on the floor. Cause I think (no insult intended) the chinese after a certain period thought it wasn't practical to fight on the ground.

[lkfmdc]

And when was kung fu associated with gangsters.

Kung fu was never a "gangster style".

blahhahahahablahhaha

you can't possibly be serious?

stop with the sugar coated fairy tales already and the polically correct mumbo jumbo....

[bredmond812]

blahhahahahablahhaha

you can't possibly be serious?

stop with the sugar coated fairy tales already and the polically correct mumbo jumbo....

no what i am saying is that you cant generalize that all kungfu styles were gangster styles. it is too broad. I thought i made that clear in the rest of my post. Of course there are styles that are more predominantly gangster, and many gangsters train gongfu, but how can you make that generalization that kungfu is a gangster style.

That might be interpreted like saying that blacks are a gangster race.