The downfall of Traditional Gung Fu

[Knifefighter]

knifefighter in your experience, are you saying that 90% of kung fu technique is useless in the ring?

What works in the ring is what you see being done there already.

From what I know in kung fu, correct if wrong, take downs in kung fu is a lead to another finishing move, we never intend to fight on the floor. Cause I think (no insult intended) the chinese after a certain period thought it wasn't practical to fight on the ground.

That's because they didn't continue fighting. Anyone who continues to fight after a takedown has occurred will quickly learn that the takedown is not usually able to be followed by an immediate finishing move.

[lkfmdc]

no what i am saying is that you cant generalize that all kungfu styles were gangster styles. it is too broad. I thought i made that clear in the rest of my post. Of course there are styles that are more predominantly gangster, and many gangsters train gongfu, but how can you make that generalization that kungfu is a gangster style.

That might be interpreted like saying that blacks are a gangster race.

Don't try and drag race into this

It would be poor taste to list all the teachers, their affiliations and what "activities" they were into but suffice to say;

The list would be long and comprehensive, every style would be included and pretty much every single person on this board would find themselves related in some way to someone on the list....

That's the facts, not pretty, but the truth none the less..... denying the truth doesn't change it

[bredmond812]

Actually, in the past, I trained Bak Mei and Longying with Luo Hanzhong. Bak mei was kind of a gangster style, and my sifu had a few stories about his days in Futsan...

[stout]

bedmond812 - sorry if I offend you or any other MMA personnell. I am jsut making a point with the question of which way this "sport" is heading. MMA, cage fighting etc is very servere. Remember how Muay Thai was forefront at one stage.

In a traditional Kung fu school, the sifu will spend time monitoring your personality before he is willing to teach you technique to kill. Very few schools will focus mainly on fighting. Learning Forms and self cultivation is the main focus. My frustration is the lack of emphasis on sparing, actual fight training in maximising the effectiveness of kung fu technique for tournaments. Hence we seldomly see kung fu technique in tournaments and kickboxers etc rule in comps.

As for gangsters, certain styles such as praying mantis, clf etc were very popular with gangster in HK back in 60s, had a bad rep over all.

[lkfmdc]

In a traditional Kung fu school, the sifu will spend time monitoring your personality before he is willing to teach you technique to kill.

Please, just stop.... silly posts like these are exactly why people don't take Chinese martial arts seriously.....

[bredmond812]

Don't try and drag race into this

It would be poor taste to list all the teachers, their affiliations and what "activities" they were into but suffice to say;

The list would be long and comprehensive, every style would be included and pretty much every single person on this board would find themselves related in some way to someone on the list....

That's the facts, not pretty, but the truth none the less..... denying the truth doesn't change it

ok ok, the race remark was not appropriate, maybe i should have said it is like saying that all shapes are triangles. In any case, it seems that you still havent accpeted that i am saying that kungfu can not be generalized as a gangster style.

The term Kungfu is really just an effort to label chinese martial arts. I dont know the etymology behind the term, of course it means time and energy or whatever, but, where it comes from escapes me. It is just another word alongside with quanfa and wushu that try to represent the same thing. Whatever the semantics or the etymology, i assume we mean here that it is chinese martial arts, and chinese martial arts have not ever been entirely a gangster style.

And the statement he made was "you refering to how kung fu was at one time very much associated gangsters?" which suggests that there was some dark time in chinese martial arts history where only gangsters were training kungfu. I dont know of any such time.

If we really want to be thoughtful, we could try to define gangster. Many of the organizations that were seen as legitimate then may not be seen that way now. Qinshi Huangdi was the law, but now we would see him more as a rogue nation. The shaolin temple was not always favored, but we generally see them as decent. Not only that, but the shaolin temple, within its history, has harbored criminals who either want to improve their life (honestly or not), or political refugees that cannot survive against the hegemony. These few examples of ambiguity reveal that definitions are hard to pin down.

The bottom line, we cant generalize that all gong fu was a gangster style, and we have to be careful when we try to.

@stout, FWIW, i am a Traditional Internal Chinese Martial Arts guy, but no offense taken, i just was confused as to what you were trying to say.

[lkfmdc]

ok ok, the race remark was not appropriate,

Fair enough, no harm no foul, move along and forget it

it seems that you still havent accpeted that i am saying that kungfu can not be generalized as a gangster style.

Let me put it this way, in China, who do you think had both the time and a vested interest in developing skills for close quarter fighting, with knives, chains, sticks, etc? For what use?

Who was doing martial arts? What groups constantly "pop up" in the traditions....

Whatever the semantics or the etymology, i assume we mean here that it is chinese martial arts, and chinese martial arts have not ever been entirely a gangster style.

When we strip away fairy tales and politically correct mumbo jumbo we find, with incredibly accurate historical reference, WHO was doing martial arts in China and it was NOT pacifict Buddhist monks, Confucian book worm scholars, etc

which suggests that there was some dark time in chinese martial arts history where only gangsters were training kungfu. I dont know of any such time.

I'd suggest you investigate the historical records of the 18th, 19th, and 20th centuries for a start

we could try to define gangster.

How about people who:
1. kill people for a living
2. beat people up for a living
3. sell drugs
4. run gambling
5. run prostitution
6. act as strong arms for political organizations to intimidate and influence society (admittedly covered under beating people up for a living)

[bredmond812]

so why not then all martial arts were for gangsters. Is this strictly a Chinese phenomenon? and why dont martial arts remain for gangsters to this day? Im not a gangster and i train martial arts.

I dont think that just because you learn to use methods that hurt people that you are necessarily a gangster. And although there is corruption in every system, not all regimes are corrupt, and so not all the people working for them are corrupt. That means that people can utilize their martial training for good purposes.

And you say that it wasnt Buddhist monks (you use the qualifier 'pacifist') or confucian scholars (book worms) who were training. I wont argue with the last one, but arent a large amount of systems coming from china directly from or derived from Shaolin methods?

ON 18th, 19th and 20th centuries: I know a little about this period. If you mean the underground 'Anti-Qing' societies, i already mentioned those as possibilities to what he was talking about.

and why would you take my comment about defining a gangstar out of context? My point was that we could define anybody to be gangsters. Argumentatively, we could call police officers gangsters because they engage in violence. We could say that our modern system is corrupt and everybody that works for it is corrupt, and so that makes this nation one big gangster society. So any group in history could be defined as a rogue, a gangster, or such. But that would be narrowminded.

Ya'know. I think you are really just being argumentative and not trying to understand the point I am making. You cant say that CHINESE martial arts ALONE is an EXCLUSIVELY gangster style.

[lkfmdc]

so why not then all martial arts were for gangsters. Is this strictly a Chinese phenomenon?

Before Kano cleaned up it's image, Jujitsu was considered the art of thugs and gangsters. Martial arts in Japan is still infested heavily with criminal elements. They are in everything from Kendo to Karate to Kickboxing to Pro Wrestling

Know anything about Mas Oyama

Korean martial arts the same tradition, my old sabanim hung out in bars and intimidated people by putting out live cigarrettes on his knuckles...

In France, Savate was strongly associated with the underworld

Again, who has an interest in learning close quarters combat, especially with blades and such?

And you say that it wasnt Buddhist monks (you use the qualifier 'pacifist') or confucian scholars (book worms) who were training. I wont argue with the last one, but arent a large amount of systems coming from china directly from or derived from Shaolin methods?

Ah, the Shaolin myth Pretty much no credible historian of TCMA believes the Shaolin myth, many many many martial arts have NO shaolin link

As for people in temples doing martial arts, most didn't learn them there, they learned them on the outside. Either retirement or a "forced retirement" put them in the temple....

One of the Shaolin monks said he learned ALL his kung fu on the outside and that his skills actually deteriorated when he decided to become a Shaolin monk

Ya'know. I think you are really just being argumentative and not trying to understand the point I am making. You cant say that CHINESE martial arts ALONE is an EXCLUSIVELY gangster style.

No, I understand the point you are TRYING to make, I just happen to know you are wrong. Having an advanced degree in Chinese history, having read many primary and secondary historical works, plus my first hand experience of 20 something years in the Mo Lum and I know that as much as peopel try and white wash it, put the fairy tales out, try to be politically correct, it isn't the truth.

The truth will set you free!

Chinese martial arts and criminal elements and undesireables have always gone hand in hand, and you'll pretty much find similar trends around the world (even in the west). Learn something about bare knuckle boxers in England and America for example

I hate politicaly correct mumbo jumbo...... it's something I strike down whereever I see because it is a load of malarky

[stout]

Please, just stop.... silly posts like these are exactly why people don't take Chinese martial arts seriously.....

LOL, sounds pretty silly alright but you know what I am trying to say. Teaching someone to do serious harm is pretty serious. Do you actually know of a sifu who would just explain and demonstrate the essence of his style after he's known you for a few months? U could probably learn all you need to learn in kick boxing in less then a year. Maybe such traditional attitude, in modern times, is one of the factors causing the downfall of kung fu. Think about all that base training you need to do for traditional hung kuan, how many wants to do that in this day and age?

[bredmond812]

Ill be open to the argument that the shaolin temple was not a developing ground for martial arts. Im already over the idea that Bodhidharma prolly never existed. I also kind of doubt there was a southern "Shaolin" temple. But where did all this variation of styles come from? And why do people have such a passion to associate with the shaolin temple then?

I dont maintain dogma. If there is a more plausable explanation, ill listen and learn.

B Redmond

[lkfmdc]

But where did all this variation of styles come from?

In a country the size of China, with the diversity of climates, ethnicities and cultural traits you are surprised they developed different traditions! Oh come on now

And why do people have such a passion to associate with the shaolin temple then?

Why does pretty much every product in your local grocery store say "new and improved"?

Or read some literature on social assimilation and appropriation.... ie guys who had no lineage or famous teacher just pointed to shaolin as their founding point, often in ridiculous and totally implausible ways

[htowndragon]

for the record, i believe in the existance of bodhidharma, its not just in the shaolin records, he's known in all of chinese buddhism as well. as for his link to shaolin kung fu? im not so sure...


as for kung fu and gangsters? im a hop gar guy now. look at my kung fu family. everyone in the generation before me. i can see both sides (redmond and ross) of the argument. for me however, im kinda from ross's world of mo lum on this one.

[SevenStar]

so why not then all martial arts were for gangsters. Is this strictly a Chinese phenomenon? and why dont martial arts remain for gangsters to this day? Im not a gangster and i train martial arts.

capoeira, jujutsu, savate and karate have all been associated with criminal elements. In this day, you don't need martial arts for this - we have guns now. As the times changed, so has the criminal element.

I dont think that just because you learn to use methods that hurt people that you are necessarily a gangster. And although there is corruption in every system, not all regimes are corrupt, and so not all the people working for them are corrupt. That means that people can utilize their martial training for good purposes.

knowing ma does NOT make you a gangster. Its what you use your training for that makes you one.

[SevenStar]

LOL, sounds pretty silly alright but you know what I am trying to say. Teaching someone to do serious harm is pretty serious. Do you actually know of a sifu who would just explain and demonstrate the essence of his style after he's known you for a few months? U could probably learn all you need to learn in kick boxing in less then a year. Maybe such traditional attitude, in modern times, is one of the factors causing the downfall of kung fu. Think about all that base training you need to do for traditional hung kuan, how many wants to do that in this day and age?

And why is he being so much more secretive? I can kill a person with muay thai, just as someone could with cma. Heck, I could probably do it easier.