How it goes

[Ultimatewingchun]

And for the second and last time (on this thread) - I'm going to talk about Kazushi Sakuraba - as I'm not married to Tony Cecchine's material or his personal track record.


SAKURABA IS A CATCH WRESTLER.

I have all of his early fights on vid...let's say, his first 10-12-14 fights or so.

Go back and watch his escapes from bottom positions.

Then go back again and watch how often he's not on the bottom.

And how many times you've actually seen him use the guard position. (I have a hard time thinking of even one).

How is that possible?

The guy is only 6' tall and weighs just barely 200 (usually coming in around 190).

It's in the training and the philosophy behind the training.

Then go back and watch some of Barnett's last fights before he retired (his 2 with Nog and his fight with Mark Hunt especially).

He's clearly not at Sak's level - but he was getting there. Watch the "style" of grappling that both men are using - and by that I mean the philosophy, ie.- CATCH ANY HOLD YOU CAN...just as long as you either have control first - or the hold (sub) you're going for yields a high potential (percentage) of gaining control over his body for you - regardless of position - EVEN THOUGH TOP POSITIONS ARE FAVORED - and escaping from non-dominant bottom positions (ie.- like the guard) are what's advocated first and foremost...

unless a sub opportunity is there (ie.- a limb or head) for the taking. Otherwise - get up and out. Also watch some of Frank Shamrock's fights in this regard as well - although his catch training was not as extensive as Barnett's and no where near Sakuraba's. (And his takedown defense has always been shaky, to say the least).

Then go back and watch how often Sak got taken down - and how often he landed on the bottom (rarely).

It's a different philosophy in many respects...and I believe the philosophy provides a more dynamic approach than BJJ - and a whole array of subs (and sub opportunites) that otherwise might get ignored.

[Knifefighter]

One thing you can't criticize about him that you can about Cecchine is that Bravo took all his glaucoma medication induced inventive names for positions and used them successfully against a high level of competition.

And his guys regularly do very well in competitions.

[Liddel]

Not to interupt at all....but i thought id just stoke the fire for you guys.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CERNSyu2q3c

And for anyone else, its just a cool clip to escape from the.... "Discussion" LOL.

[t_niehoff]

The thing I like about the BJJ positional strategy is it works better where weapons and striking are concerned.

And I think that this positional strategy can be particularly useful to beginners as it provides a framework around which to build a solid ground game.

Eddie's innovation regarding the Twister (which was Rigan's name for the move, BTW) was not the fact that he "developed" it (which he didn't, nor does he claim to have done), but the fact that what he did develop was a whole host of setups to enter into it. He can get into the Twister from almost any position.

This underscores how BJJ continues to evolve.

In my view, there are several proven, very good approaches to developing solid ground games: BJJ, judo, sambo, catch, folk wrestling, etc. In the end analysis, it isn't the approach you use to develop your game that is all that significant. What matters is your level of personal development. Different people may, for various reasons, like different certain approaches better than others.

Pointing at one guy, Sak, as "proof" that catch or it's approach is superior to everything else doesn't make any sense at all. If that were the case (one guy proves the superiority of a method), we should all be pointing to Fedor and dropping everything to do sambo. Sak's results proves that he is a great fighter, and that his catch training worked for well for him. Does this mean he wouldn't have been as good if he trained in judo or BJJ or sambo? Who can say? If catch is so superior, why isn't catch dominating MMA or grappling competitions (there are other people training in catch, right? -- including people from Sak's gym.).

[sanjuro_ronin]

Lets keep it simple, doing what you do, and doing it well, that gets victories.

Be it MT, BJJ, Sambo, Wrestling, or Ethiopian Sumo.

[Wayfaring]

Another point to bring up - a lot of these top known catch fighters, like specifically Sak and Josh Barnett, do cross-train with top grapplers from other arts. If you think Josh Barnett hasn't had many sessions with top level BJJ players you're mistaken.

[anerlich]

And for anyone else, its just a cool clip to escape from the.... "Discussion"

Thanks, that was a great clip. That roundhouse to the head and the cartwheels are fan-friggin-tastic. I could watch that all day.

Allen Goes gave Saku a hard time with that sitting guard and up-kicks. Everyone Saku has fought since that tried it, from Belfort on, got PWN3D.

Saku and Genki remain my favorite guys because they'll try just about anything and often pull it off.

Not much there really to stoke the catch v bjj argument, if there has to be one. It more a triumph of superior skill and athleticism, and a lack of willingness to swallow the hype.

[Liddel]

Saku and Genki remain my favorite guys because they'll try just about anything and often pull it off.

Hell yeah, for the most part they make fighting so much more exciting to watch.

Its great to watch fighters adlib into the unorthadox, as a spectacle... but also as a strategy to keep the opponent one step behind.

Unpredictable = Formidable IMO.

[sihing]

Hell yeah, for the most part they make fighting so much more exciting to watch.

Its great to watch fighters adlib into the unorthadox, as a spectacle... but also as a strategy to keep the opponent one step behind.

Unpredictable = Formidable IMO.

We'll have to get this "Terrence Approved" before this can be called an official combat tactic.

T, when you have a moment can you approve this? Pls and Thx Dude, in the meantime continue to visit your local MMA club for further instruction in the way

James

[Mr Punch]

Saku and Genki remain my favorite guys because they'll try just about anything and often pull it off.

OT but you know Genki retired? *sniff sniff*

[Ultimatewingchun]

Sak should retire also.

Sorry to say....he's over the hill.

BUT HE WAS GREAT.

[anerlich]

Yeah, Genki had a neck injury, and Saku could/should have quit while he was on top with no disgrace.

Looking forward to the next great MMA creative genius.

[t_niehoff]

We'll have to get this "Terrence Approved" before this can be called an official combat tactic.

T, when you have a moment can you approve this? Pls and Thx Dude, in the meantime continue to visit your local MMA club for further instruction in the way

James

No one needs approval from *anyone* -- if they get results (in fighting) doing what they are doing. Lots of tactics can work. It's not the tactics themselves that work, however, it is the person using them (their personal ability) that makes them work. While there are great examples of very successful unconventional fighters, there are also examples of unsuccessful unconventional fighters too. And, of course, there are lots of very good conventional fighters (there is a reason so many do the "conventional" things: they've been tried, tested, etc.).

Don't worry about the "meantime" -- I will continue to plug away. Just, as I'm sure, you will continue to theorize with your "conceptual WCK".

[sihing]

No one needs approval from *anyone* -- if they get results (in fighting) doing what they are doing. Lots of tactics can work. It's not the tactics themselves that work, however, it is the person using them (their personal ability) that makes them work. While there are great examples of very successful unconventional fighters, there are also examples of unsuccessful unconventional fighters too. And, of course, there are lots of very good conventional fighters (there is a reason so many do the "conventional" things: they've been tried, tested, etc.).

Don't worry about the "meantime" -- I will continue to plug away. Just, as I'm sure, you will continue to theorize with your "conceptual WCK".

I agree with your first paragraph, as it is up to the person using the method to really determine if it is for them. Like you said, there are plenty examples of lots of different types of people making conventional and unconvention tactics work, it's all in how "YOU" as an individual makes it work.

Regarding your training methods as compared to mine, I wish you all the best with them. You and I have very different thoughts on Martial Arts, and therefore train differently. Neither is better or worse, it all depends on what you want out of it T, I just don't force my way onto everyone else as the only way, like you do on a regular basis, like you are lecturing us as you would your students. I love training and teaching VT and look forward to more theoretical and practical work in the future.

By the way my original post was a joke at your expense, I hope you don't mind

James