MMA is a combat sport that allows many styles of martial arts (hence "Mixed Martial Arts").
To this day many ORGs list the disciplines of fighters and they go by different terms from "Kickboxer" (e.g. Chuck Liddell) to "Mixed Martial Artist" (e.g. Quinton Jackson) to "Submission Fighter" (e.g. Frank Shamrock) to even 'hybrid' style like San Shou + Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (e.g. Cung Le).
BJJ, Kickboxing, Muay Thai, Western Boxing and Submission/Catch Wrestling are some of the most popular arts taught in MMA gyms.
But I'd say MasterKiller is right, MMA itself is not actually a "style".
I reject his argument because it sidesteps the point. We can keep adding styles to that list till we're blue in the face.
However, notice that none of them are Chinese. That whole knowledge base has been dismissed as "the same" or with "nothing new to offer" or hong kong phooey.
My point of bringing this up is that there are UNIQUE things from TCMA that can add to the knowledge base of MMA despite the claims of some on this board.
I reject the equivalence argument and the not important argument.
Last edited by Fu-Pow; 07-02-2007 at 10:59 AM.
I would be interested in some of the techniques you had in mind. I do think that TCMA must have something to offer that is not commonly used in MMA fights, especially in the area of striking.
The Superman/Cobra punch is a technique becoming more popular. GSP knocked Matt Hughes down with it in their 2nd fight and almost stopped him at the end of round 1.
I'd never seen a spinning heel kick attempted in MMA nevermind done successfully (TWICE) until I saw Cung Le's fight with Fryklund.
I think a move like Iron Palm could be pulled off successfully in MMA and become a useful technique to anyone who mastered it.
Last edited by MysticNinjaJay; 07-02-2007 at 11:07 AM.
So the MMA "style"=an amalgam of combat sports? Ok, I agree.
I specifically defined MMA in my first sentence of this thread as Judo, BJJ and Muy Thai. Ok, so let's suppose that definition MMA is a bit too narrow. I'll concede that.B) If San Shou is a format, then so is MMA.
The arguments made to me by you and others have been made specifically about those arts that MOST TYPICALLY make up the curricula of MMA.
Such and such has that or such and such has this. The argument is that there is nothing unique about TCMA that can't be found in those arts that typically make up the curricula of MMA pracititioners. Is that specific enough for you?
On that point I disagree. There are novel things about TCMA..... not found anywhere else. It maybe a complete difference or it may be a difference of emphasis and/or mechanics.
FP
What works and what does not work in MMA has been pressure tested and is constantly being fined tuned. When declaring that what the “MMA crowd” has proven to be effective is hubris is inaccurate. This is self-confidence that is developed through constant success with the use of field testing.
Hubris is assuming that untested technique and skill will prevail at any given moment. Hubris is assuming that you are in good enough shape to out run your attacker/s or conditioned enough to take a really hard shot to the jaw. Hubris would be best defined by the following technique clips that I discovered when researching the Looang Foo Pai School. My former roommate recommended them to me when I decided to start training again.
Even though this post may come off as being disrespectful, possibly a troll, but I am actually trying to make a point. These techniques are indicative of what is being passed as actual self defense in many traditional systems. I often see on many boards that “Oh my style is the real deal and your style is crap ect ect. But if you compare most TMA self defense side by side it basically all follows the same structure.
Just so it doesn’t seem like I am attacking these gentlemen only, I will add several clips that will mirror the same kind of nonsense that is prevalent through out TCMA or TMA.
1a) http://www.imagestation.com/4110950/3961103680 (Lethal rib breaking
nipple strikes.)
1b) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTFBd-Az7Xw (took me a while to find
another nipple strike video….. OMG DEATH TOUCH)
2a )http://www.imagestation.com/4110950/3961103246 Kung fu's
solution to the Ultimate fighter jab cross combo.... Is it just me or would he
have eaten that cross?
2b) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1X1OMVlXpg (More jab cross defense. It’s
so pretty)
2c) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3ASdKml6zU (even more silly punch defense)
3) http://www.imagestation.com/4110950/3961103085 FFS!! tearing ligaments apart with a tiger claw??? Against someone resisting, that pain would have caused a jerk reaction. This means he would have pulled away and that tiger claw, lo kou whatever, wouldn't have been able to hold on.
4a) http://www.imagestation.com/4110950/3961102838 Sigh, just sigh......
4b) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENp6o1_srVY Sigh, He watched Body guard from Beijing one to many times.(Wing Chun)
5) http://www.imagestation.com/4110950/3961102785... WHATs MY NAME!!! Now
that was just funny as hell.
6a) http://www.imagestation.com/4110950/3961102627 (Breaking the arm and the ribs Nonsense!!! The real nonsense of this self defense technique is that is done off of a lead hand jab.
6b) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lbNGvvrSM0 Just as silly as the above link!
7) http://www.imagestation.com/4110950/3961102499 (The real Chin na...sigh.)
8) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQg1FvFAaPo (Knife defense using Chin-na assuming that the person is compliant enough for you to pull all that off) Sigh
Just to reply to Fu pow’s original post
Even if there are that many Kung-fu systems, how many ways can you throw, strike, trip, grapple, elbow, kick or knee a person? Isn’t it more likely that over time in attempt to be unique more elaborate techniques, that may or may not work, were designed to differentiate systems?Quote “To my knowledge there are over 300 styles of Kung Fu that have been documented in China so I find it kind of silly to say that in all cases "MMA already has it."
All martial arts are geared towards solving the same problem and that is survival. If you think there is any other reason to learn how to defend yourself you are delusional.Quote Fu Pow The MMA training methodology is geared toward solving a certain problem.”
Now let me ask you this. Do you think “so called” pure street self-defense martial artist are more likely to prevail against a street attacker? Pair a MMA format practioner versus the “Self-defense person” I am willing to bet the person who trained to actually fight would prevail. When I say trained, I mean a person who has learned to take a blow, pressure tested their technique and understands the difference between ring fighting, street fighting, slow roll, pad work or even kung fu technique drills.
Ring fighting has rules and we all know and understand what that means..right? Within a rule set certain things are excluded, but it is ignorant to believe that if it is not done in the ring that the MMA rule set fighter wouldn’t use it in the street or be prepared for it. I know here people will insert “Oh, but wait, multiple attackers…. Can MMA deal with that?” Well… can any martial arts really deal with that? If you say yes, please go study with the guy in clip 4b.
The next universal comment is probably… “Wait, what about the glass and the concrete ohhh and the baby duckies!” Unless you are training in a school that has concrete floors covered in glass no one will be ready.”
There is always going to be a bit of the unknown during a street fight. Regardless if it is glass on the floor, a person with a bat, multiple attackers or my Sister-in-law chasing after you the person who has trained to actually deal with the encounter will more than likely survive against an attack than the person who Larps it.
I agree!!!!!!!!!Quote Masterkiller
The hubris of CMA assuming that they have "something special" that is not found within the context of one or more other styles is the real issue.
What does it posses that it can add that is wholly unique in nature, not found in other systems represented in any pressure tested combat format ? When I say comabt format I do not mean against pads, heavy bags or dummies. I mean against someone who is going to move his head when you try to eye gouge him, squeeze his thighs together when you try to pinch his groin or actually take the punch, smile, then head butt you in the face.....Quote Fu Pow
My point of bringing this up is that there are UNIQUE things from TCMA that can add to the knowledge base of MMA despite the claims of some on this board.
NINJA PLEASE….. You made me spit juice out of my nose! I was so trying to be serious and you gone and made me lose my composure.Quote Mystic
I think a move like Iron Palm could be pulled off successfully in MMA and become a useful technique to anyone who mastered it.
wow... long post sorry...
Last edited by Notintheface; 07-02-2007 at 12:51 PM. Reason: Added to my thoughts and editting
MMA is a competition format, regardless of how you personally define it.
Sure, TCMA has LOTS of stuff not found in most competition arts becauseThe argument is that there is nothing unique about TCMA that can't be found in those arts that typically make up the curricula of MMA pracititioners. Is that specific enough for you?
On that point I disagree. There are novel things about TCMA..... not found anywhere else. It maybe a complete difference or it may be a difference of emphasis and/or mechanics.
a) some techniques are illegal in competition and
b) fighting has evolved, and
c) TCMA has a lot of unbelievably overcomplicated and obtuse techniques
Of couse, since you've never taken an "MMA" class or sparred in an MMA format, you are obviously more qualified to make assumptions about it's content.
Last edited by MasterKiller; 07-02-2007 at 01:01 PM.
What do you keep this ready to post around?1a) http://www.imagestation.com/4110950/3961103680 (Lethal rib breaking
nipple strikes.)
1b) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTFBd-Az7Xw (took me a while to find
another nipple strike video….. OMG DEATH TOUCH)
2a )http://www.imagestation.com/4110950/3961103246 Kung fu's
solution to the Ultimate fighter jab cross combo.... Is it just me or would he
have eaten that cross?
2b) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1X1OMVlXpg (More jab cross defense. It’s
so pretty)
2c) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3ASdKml6zU (even more silly punch defense)
3) http://www.imagestation.com/4110950/3961103085 FFS!! tearing ligaments apart with a tiger claw??? Against someone resisting, that pain would have caused a jerk reaction. This means he would have pulled away and that tiger claw, lo kou whatever, wouldn't have been able to hold on.
4a) http://www.imagestation.com/4110950/3961102838 Sigh, just sigh......
4b) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENp6o1_srVY Sigh, He watched Body guard from Beijing one to many times.(Wing Chun)
5) http://www.imagestation.com/4110950/3961102785... WHATs MY NAME!!! Now
that was just funny as hell.
6a) http://www.imagestation.com/4110950/3961102627 (Breaking the arm and the ribs Nonsense!!! The real nonsense of this self defense technique is that is done off of a lead hand jab.
6b) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lbNGvvrSM0 Just as silly as the above link!
7) http://www.imagestation.com/4110950/3961102499 (The real Chin na...sigh.)
8) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQg1FvFAaPo (Knife defense using Chin-na assuming that the person is compliant enough for you to pull all that off) Sigh
You're going to take the weakest examples and say that this is indicative of everyone and every style. That's totally illogical.
How many ways can build a house with the same materials? How many ways can you cook food with the same ingredients? Well?Even if there are that many Kung-fu systems, how many ways can you throw, strike, trip, grapple, elbow, kick or knee a person? Isn’t it more likely that over time in attempt to be unique more elaborate techniques, that may or may not work, were designed to differentiate systems?
Granted, not all houses are going to be as well built, not all dishes are going to taste as good. You will start to find commonalities in approaches to doing things well but outside of those commonalities you will always find diversity. To ignore that diversity or shun it is to lose out.
MMA is geared toward solving a certain problem. How to win MMA matches. What I hear consistently from people in MMA is "if it doesn't win MMA matches it won't be accepted or adopted into the MMA curricula." So don't try to make MMA about training for "self-defense", that may be a side benefit but the focus is always on competition and those competitions are used as the criteria for what is considered valid and what is not.All martial arts are geared towards solving the same problem and that is survival. If you think there is any other reason to learn how to defend yourself you are delusional.
What I'm saying is there may be some techniques or approaches in TCMA that do not currently exist in the curricula and will help you win matches. To write that off or to say its all "equivalent" is just stupid.
I'm not going to get into the ring vs street argument. That's not the point of this thread. Let's keep it in the ring for now.Now let me ask you this. Do you think “so called” pure street self-defense martial artist are more likely to prevail against a street attacker? Pair a MMA format practioner versus the “Self-defense person” I am willing to bet the person who trained to actually fight would prevail. When I say trained, I mean a person who has learned to take a blow, pressure tested their technique and understands the difference between ring fighting, street fighting, slow roll, pad work or even kung fu technique drills.
FYI, I agree with the concept of competition as part of training for self-defense. I'm just saying that there are some UNIQUE aspects of TCMA in terms of strategy, technique and methodology that WILL find its way into MMA....eventually, despite resistance from its current adherents.
FP
[QUOTE]a) some techniques are illegal in competition[QUOTE]
Plus, most of these illegal techniques do not really work as most people assume.
The usual knee break kick, throat strike that supposedly always hits it mark, the fabled groin kick of doom, the standing elbow break and ummmm........... which ones did I forget? oh and the fabled crush a nose into the brain thing.
Fu Pow, Novel does not mean effective. It may have been effective when everyone was fighting in a similar manner meaning kung fu versus kung fu. If this was so, then shouldn't you be able to be recreated a full contact Kung fu event where the techniques were used instead of all the kung fu practitioners falling back on kick boxing skills.Fu Pow
There are novel things about TCMA..... not found anywhere else. It
Shan Shou shows the throwing skills, striking skills of Kung fu but is no different that having judo and kick boxing together. Shuai Jiao is not that diffrent than Judo and they can reproduce effectively and realistically what they say they can do. These arts and rule sets I can respect but the rest sometimes is pure nonsense and larping.
Master KillerI have to disagree here. Theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world; an organized system of accepted knowledge that applies in a variety of circumstances to explain a specific set of phenomena; "theories can incorporate facts and laws and tested hypotheses"; "true in fact and theory"But when you are talking about things that *really* work vs theory, it's all the same sh1t.
What most people, especialy those in the clips, are doing is called hypothesizing which is a tentative theory about the natural world; a concept that is not yet verified but that if true would explain certain facts or phenomena; "a scientific hypothesis that survives experimental testing becomes a scientific theory"; "he proposed a fresh theory of alkalis that later was accepted in chemical practices"
Last edited by Notintheface; 07-02-2007 at 01:16 PM. Reason: underline and italics
Actually, if you want to get technical NHB, UFC, IFL, Pride, Vale Tudo, Pankration, are the "formats."
The competitors in these formats practice MMA which is a compendium of arts that are trained to compete in these type of formats. Typically, the most successful training program has been drawn from Judo, BJJ and Muy Thai.
You think that because a student of MMA's training is comprised of several different arts that a practitioner of MMA has no "style."?
B.S. because the MMA practitioner usually pulls training, techniques from several different styles.....from an approved list.
I was told specifically by you and others that these approved "styles" have everything that TCMA has, its just called something different.
And I still disagree with that.
That's not what I'm talking about.Sure, TCMA has LOTS of stuff not found in most competition arts because
a) some techniques are illegal in competition and
b) fighting has evolved, and
c) TCMA has a lot of unbelievably overcomplicated and obtuse techniques
Argumentum ad hominem, do you really want to go down that road? You have a very limited knowledge of what I do and don't know. And I certainly don't know anything about you accept the Northern Shaolin form clips that you posted a few year back....which to me looked like Wushu.Of couse, since you've never taken an "MMA" class or sparred in an MMA format, you are obviously more qualified to make assumptions about it's content.
In other words, you talk the MMA talk but I haven't seen you walk the MMA walk.
FP
Last edited by MasterKiller; 07-03-2007 at 12:13 PM.