Claims about MMA

**Notintheface** · 07-04-2007, 02:03 PM

Knife fighter,

Dude, it is just not worth it anymore. Fu Pow is one of those people who, no matter what evidence or logic is put before him, will refuse to see the forest for the trees. HE has moved from Hung gar, to CLF, to Tai Chi. These moves should tell you a lot about him when combined with his personality.

(Note: I am not putting down these systems as I am sure they are fine and upstanding examples of the CMA)

He has moved from the very aggressive styles of CLF and Hung gar to the so-called "Internal" arts. With Tai chi being one of the internal arts that has been water down to geriatric water ballet speaks volumes of Fu pow's intent. ( I am sure there is some combat Tai chi out there some where and push hands is not combat)

He is looking for that elusive super inner power, in order to compensate for lack of any real skill, strength, or technique. When he is unable to make his techniques work consistently he will blame himself because "the flower has not bloom in his minds eye yet" It is never the system because his master's, master's, sister-in-law's lil brother was able to kill 10 men with it and smash a bolder with his ***** 300 years ago. Fu pow is the perfect example of the students who keep Mc dojos open. Kudos

**n00854180t** · 07-04-2007, 02:23 PM

Knifefighter, NITF, do you admit though that there are a few (very very few, I actually think the only one that was decent was the Russian (I think) match between the aikido guy and a muay thai fighter, and both seemed not to be "elite") videos that actually show some decent aikido? You always seem to post examples of crappy YouTube videos which seem to show complete novices failing against somewhat trained grapplers. Or on the other end you have these obviously phony people trying to do "chi blasts" and the like, and seem to be asserting that all kung fu is of this nature? I went through most of the videos on there last night and was unable to find anything I'd call worthy of a comparison whatever, be it TKD, karate, kung fu or MMA for that matter. Most just seem to be very untrained people goofing off, or one sided fights between an untrained X and someone twice their size that has some form of grappling experience.

Alls I'm saying is, YouTube seems like it is definitely not representative of *any* martial arts.

**Knifefighter** · 07-04-2007, 02:38 PM

Originally Posted by n00854180t

I actually think the only one that was decent was the Russian (I think) match between the aikido guy and a muay thai fighter, and both seemed not to be "elite").

That match was a demonstration. It was not real.

**Knifefighter** · 07-04-2007, 02:51 PM

Originally Posted by n00854180t

Knifefighter, NITF, do you admit though that there are a few videos that actually show some decent aikido? .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dA0XACGbYck
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dA0XACGbYck
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1T3Z...elated&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k12Cd...elated&search=

**Knifefighter** · 07-04-2007, 02:59 PM

Originally Posted by n00854180t

Alls I'm saying is, YouTube seems like it is definitely not representative of *any* martial arts.

**Notintheface** · 07-04-2007, 03:08 PM

n00854180t's

n0,

The youtube stuff I put up was examples of average people. I did this because someone said "The best way to tell if an art works is not by the pros but when demonstrated by the average student." I think it was Fu pow but don't quote me on that. I posted on the empiric thread children, adults, all were average people putting on a show in local tournaments, in schools and in fun sparring sessions. No one was trying to knock each other out but they were tying to use what works.

I you want me to pull out the elite as an example, which fu pow thing is not indicative of the styles effectiveness or average students skill, I can easily do so for Judo, Shuai Jiao, MT,BJJ, Sambo,Savate, Boxing, San Da and many other styles. These style pro port to fight a certain way and what they say they do. They make no excuses or make outlandish claims. If you ask a typical or pro TCMA to do the same you will not receive direct evidence of effectiveness. Pro TCMA. excluding Shuai Jiao and Sand da, does not look like what is taught in the forms or with their drills. I am not saying you have look like the movies but do not do kickboxing then call it kung fu. Do not make outlandish claims like Fu pow and then say oh its "possible" but you are not seeing with your eyes o you have to feel it when my sifu touches hands with you. I have touched hands with so-called chi-master and people who "specialize in Fah jing power" only to get excuses when they are unable to reproduce what they can do on a willing student.

This is not only prevalent in the TCMA but in most TMA. I have heard things like "Well if he shoots in i'll kick him in the face, drop into a ma bu, my root is to strong to be taken down, eagel claw him behind the neck, I'll use dim mak stike special # 32" and the list goes on and on.

Alls I'm saying is, YouTube seems like it is definitely not representative of *any* martial arts.

It is representative of martial arts. All the average everyday people who use the arts either as a hobby or for combat are posted for the world to see. The combat orientated systems have both the average person up and the pro. You see the worst of them and the best. Even the worst of them still are able to demonstrate that the techniques work even in a gross motor skill way.

The TMA has the average guy performing but no pros. I do not included San da in the typical TCMA mindset. If they say they are going to throw you.. you are on your ass. In TMCA they say "I'm gonna parry the right hand, hook the left hand
grab the wrist then throw you to the floor." but when it comes down to demonstrating those techniques in full force mode they revert to kick boxing. Even though there is nothing bad with kickboxing but when this occurs this should be telling you, as a practioner of TCMA, that something is a miss. If you can not pull off a given technique when the opportunity arises, after constantly drilling it, it is not you who is "broken" but the technique.

**Notintheface** · 07-04-2007, 03:15 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JD5FQ...elated&search=
TMA, no nonsense, they say they will F you up and they do it....Take note and follow suit.

I can't wait for this kind of power kicking to become more prevalent in MMA fights.
Great finds Knife.

**n00854180t** · 07-04-2007, 03:40 PM

Originally Posted by Knifefighter

BJJ:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ciYtazMQE4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjK0g...elated&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFCwd...elated&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdrf8...elated&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHUXUW2i8PA

I don't think anyone is arguing that BJJ isn't effective against fighters that have little to no ground training. That certainly isn't what I was saying.

Kyokushin Karate:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJ7fcFiZa7g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JD5FQ...elated&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FB8h...elated&search=

I admit there are *some* decent videos, but there seem to be very few that demonstrate different styles of fighter at equal skills levels vs. Usually they are of the type of the above, with one fighter having vastly superior skills in an area that makes the difference (i.e., ground vs. primarily strikers).

**Notintheface** · 07-04-2007, 04:02 PM

See stuff like this, strike the nipple that breaks the whole rib cage. This kind of stuff gives TCMA a bad name. This runs more rampant than actual true tested methods.

http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2099609627

What knife is trying tog et at, if I may be so bold as to interpret, is that all those people are the average people in the systems. Look at a typical sparring match at a kung fu tournament. Look at an average kung fu class sparring session. It does not remotely demonstrate what is indicative of the fighting method that is professed by the kung fu teachers.,

Now if you could possibly post something that shows more than what we have been discussing in this thread. I have been looking like crazy trying to prove myself wrong and I have been only able to find what I already have posted.

Gone are they days of "Oh you have to just take my word for it or have faith it will work one day."

**n00854180t** · 07-04-2007, 04:03 PM

Originally Posted by Notintheface

n00854180t's

n0,

The youtube stuff I put up was examples of average people. I did this because someone said "The best way to tell if an art works is not by the pros but when demonstrated by the average student." I think it was Fu pow but don't quote me on that. I posted on the empiric thread children, adults, all were average people putting on a show in local tournaments, in schools and in fun sparring sessions. No one was trying to knock each other out but they were tying to use what works.

Okay, it's just that I see very few TCMA people there, either average or otherwise. It seems they are either same style sparring matches, or matches that no one would argue will be one sided (as in the Gracie videos). Perhaps this is part of the problem in general?

I you want me to pull out the elite as an example, which fu pow thing is not indicative of the styles effectiveness or average students skill, I can easily do so for Judo, Shuai Jiao, MT,BJJ, Sambo,Savate, Boxing, San Da and many other styles. These style pro port to fight a certain way and what they say they do. They make no excuses or make outlandish claims. If you ask a typical or pro TCMA to do the same you will not receive direct evidence of effectiveness. Pro TCMA. excluding Shuai Jiao and Sand da, does not look like what is taught in the forms or with their drills. I am not saying you have look like the movies but do not do kickboxing then call it kung fu. Do not make outlandish claims like Fu pow and then say oh its "possible" but you are not seeing with your eyes o you have to feel it when my sifu touches hands with you. I have touched hands with so-called chi-master and people who "specialize in Fah jing power" only to get excuses when they are unable to reproduce what they can do on a willing student.

Indeed, I agree. It seems that the styles you listed above are prevalent and stick to the methods that they actually train. I just see very little of TCMA that is of much skill level or not contrived to produce a certain result. For instance, I don't see any TCMA fighters that also train Shuai Chiao plus whatever kung fu style vs. MMA fighters or the like. As you say, it seems most of them end up kickboxing or something that looks more like TKD sparring than kung fu at all. Also, I am the first to admit that the "chi blast" people are full of it, and are only using willing students. If this is obvious to me, without any real experience of my own, then I think it is for absurd for anyone that actually trains TCMA to claim that it is real.

This is not only prevalent in the TCMA but in most TMA. I have heard things like "Well if he shoots in i'll kick him in the face, drop into a ma bu, my root is to strong to be taken down, eagel claw him behind the neck, I'll use dim mak stike special # 32" and the list goes on and on.

Right, and this is unrealistic as one can see in some of the videos posted above. I think likely the only real way to defend against a good ground game is to have that training as well, and not to try and assume that XYZ combo of striking or techniques will magically close that gap in experience.

It is representative of martial arts. All the average everyday people who use the arts either as a hobby or for combat are posted for the world to see. The combat orientated systems have both the average person up and the pro. You see the worst of them and the best. Even the worst of them still are able to demonstrate that the techniques work even in a gross motor skill way.

This seems to be true of TMA, but there are not all that many TCMA videos that are not forms or contrived matches. That's just my impression.

The TMA has the average guy performing but no pros. I do not included San da in the typical TCMA mindset. If they say they are going to throw you.. you are on your ass. In TMCA they say "I'm gonna parry the right hand, hook the left hand
grab the wrist then throw you to the floor." but when it comes down to demonstrating those techniques in full force mode they revert to kick boxing. Even though there is nothing bad with kickboxing but when this occurs this should be telling you, as a practioner of TCMA, that something is a miss. If you can not pull off a given technique when the opportunity arises, after constantly drilling it, it is not you who is "broken" but the technique.

I agree completely. Personally I do not share the reservations of some that training TCMA is the "ultimate" answer to everything. I find that hard to believe and do not see it in practice. In my completely non-expert estimation, one must leave options open to adapt to the environment one finds oneself in. If this includes cross training in MMA or other styles to include adequate ground training, so be it.

I guess what I'm wondering is if any of the "pro-MMA" people (and please note, I am neither pro one or the other, and personally think either could benefit from the other muchly) think that TCMA has merit as a core training method, augmented with other styles to cover the weak areas (ground apparently)?

I also agree that techniques that are ineffective, unrealistic, or nigh impossible to perform on a resisting, skilled opponent should be thrown out or put aside for more effective training.

Again, I do not claim to be expert, and in fact quite the opposite. Take these observations as one from an outside MA enthusiast, only.

-Ross

**n00854180t** · 07-04-2007, 04:06 PM

Originally Posted by Notintheface

Now if you could possibly post something that shows more than what we have been discussing in this thread. I have been looking like crazy trying to prove myself wrong and I have been only able to find what I already have posted.

Gone are they days of "Oh you have to just take my word for it or have faith it will work one day."

I cannot post anything of the sort, since I am not experienced in the least. Personally, I would like to see this just as much or more so than you

The fact that it is not there, in whole or part, is what I am pointing out. My above post was an attempt to point out that it seems there are very few videos that show even average TCMA students actually applying their training, much less skilled (not elite or expert even) students sparring with students of other styles. I would very much like to see *that*.

I also admit my incorrectness as to the representation of other MAs on YouTube in general. And as to the Russian MT vs. Aikido fight, it wasn't apparent in my sleep deprived state (40 hours) that this was also a demonstration, so I withdraw this as well.

**Notintheface** · 07-04-2007, 04:19 PM

here are some tournament fighting clips

http://www.bakshaolineagleclaw.com/v...erFight01.html

http://www.bakshaolineagleclaw.com/v...teFight01.html

Another example of the nonsense that represents kung fu.
__________________________________________________ ________________
http://www.lingnamsiulum.com/philosophy.htm

At Ling Nam Siu Lum, the primary focus has always been on Self-Defense and Self-Improvement. That is not to say that I don't train students for tournament competition, I just don't emphasize it as much as commercial schools do. Let us make a distinction in terms here: Sself-Defense training involves those techniques and methods which allow a practitioner to incapacitate an opponent as efficiently and quickly as possible, regardless of size, number of opponents and level of threat (armed or unarmed). This requires attacking some of the most vulnerable areas on the body. Such tactics would be taboo in sport competition for obvious safety reasons. T

The mindset of the self-defense practitioner also poses certain problems in the sporting arena. The Self-Defense practitioner, particularly Southern Kung Fu stylists, by their very nature, are relentless in their attacks.

They constantly press forward in their attacks maintaining pressure on the opponent, allowing no quarter, so as to efficiently dispose of the opponent as quickly as possible. This is achieved by controlling the opponent's "bridge" through such methods as sticking, trapping and/or destroying the opponent's bridge.

I understand that this is his philosophy and his beliefs but can you honestly say that it holds water?

Please tell me how this is any different than kick boxing? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1XxziUQtrc

**Notintheface** · 07-04-2007, 04:30 PM

Okay, it's just that I see very few TCMA people there, either average or otherwise. It seems they are either same style sparring matches, or matches that no one would argue will be one sided (as in the Gracie videos). Perhaps this is part of the problem in general?

Yes it is a problem in general. When the kung fu people do step up to use their style people say its one sided because Bjj took it to the ground. It is one style versus the other. It would like saying "oh the judo guy won because he threw the silat guy on his head thus it is one sided" Royce gracie or any gracie is just like any person here when they would challenge or be challenged before they gained extreme fame in the ufc. It has been a while since the ground game has been put into the martial arts ring and people have more than had the opportunity to develop methods to counter it. Some have failed some have succeeded. But I digress, when it is one style versus another you can not say it is one sided because it is just that style versus style. Judo will throw you, kyokashin(sp) will try to beat you to a bloody pulp, Bjj will try to tap you out and kung fu will do what?

I guess what I'm wondering is if any of the "pro-MMA" people (and please note, I am neither pro one or the other, and personally think either could benefit from the other muchly) think that TCMA has merit as a core training method, augmented with other styles to cover the weak areas (ground apparently)?

I am not saying that Kung fu is wholly nonsense because I understand that there is always a .001 person who can pull off what they say. Also, I actually plan on using some of the Shuai Jiao training methods for conditioning.

**n00854180t** · 07-04-2007, 04:34 PM

Eh, I do think it is one sided when you have someone who has a primary focus on ground going up against someone that has no ground training at all, or so little as to not matter. Trying to counter ground with striking seems a bit fruitless to me. It's not merely style vs. style, I think, because you are talking about one side having an automatic advantage. What I'd like to see is style vs. style where both fighters are well rounded, not contrived fights where one obviously has a deficiency in a key sport MA area and that is used to end the fight. To me that's no different than people demonstrating impractical techniques on completely untrained people, in slow motion, and claiming this would be effective vs a skilled, resisting opponent.

Although perhaps your point is that maybe a TMA fighter could have landed a few powerful blows. Still though, without ground training the other could close fast enough to get the takedown and from there it's basically over. My ex-wife almost got first dan in karate before she started having health problems, and I've felt her strikes before...quite a bit of power considering she was out of shape when we met and also a very small girl (5'2").

**Notintheface** · 07-04-2007, 05:00 PM

I do think it is one sided when you have someone who has a primary focus on ground going up against someone that has no ground training at all, or so little as to not matter.

When ever you put style versus style you are gonna have a gap some where.

ok say for example, you put a Judo practitioner against a kick boxer. The kick boxer wins by head kick KO. People can say, "oh it was one sided because Judo people are at a striking disadvantage" THe complete revers can be said if a Judo person throws the kick boxer on his head for a KO. The disadvantage would be the kick boxer doesn't know how to throw.

trying to counter ground with striking seems a bit fruitless to me. It's not merely style vs. style, I think, because you are talking about one side having an automatic advantage

there has been people who can counter grappling with pure striking. The stuff a shoot, get there as off the floor and out of guards as fast as possible, or whatever. When is the last time you seen chuck Liddel grapple? It can and has been done. It has to be trained but a lot of people go in not knowing the enemey and assume that what they have is going to pass muster.

What I'd like to see is style vs. style where both fighters are well rounded, not contrived fights where one obviously has a deficiency

Well, welcome to MMA. Thai fighers are learning to throw and grapple, judokans learn to kick like Thai fighters. But I doubt we will ever see tiger claws, nipple strikes, Tai chi shoulder strikes anytime soon in the combat skill set of fighters.

to me that's no different than people demonstrating impractical techniques on completely untrained people, in slow motion, and claiming this would be effective vs a skilled, resisting opponent.

It is different, it is telling you to look at what I know that is working on you. A smart fighter would be like WTF was that. Learn it, build a defense, fight again and say Ha, not this time.

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