Wing Chun Vs Kicks Pt 1

[anerlich]

I am sure you too one day can come here to the USA. If you work hard maybe your dream can come true like so many millions around the world.

I've been there. Let's just say I'm happier living where I do.

[edward]

Phil, you know people debating whether thai kicks are stronger then tae kwon do or karate kicks... is just wasted time on my part, dealing with them, so i just let em post and enjoy their own writing.

THanks for the offer, I'll take a look.

[edward]

also forgot to mention... people look at tae kwon do kicks today.. well guess what the kicks that they do, is olympic style for point sparring.... actual fighting, is way different, but most people only train point style with the kicks of today

[Knifefighter]

also forgot to mention... people look at tae kwon do kicks today.. well guess what the kicks that they do, is olympic style for point sparring.... actual fighting, is way different, but most people only train point style with the kicks of today

I've heard that quite a bit and here's my beef with that... no one can ever demonstrate under live conditions the old method of kicking.

[edward]

well you need to get out more

[YungChun]

I've heard that quite a bit and here's my beef with that... no one can ever demonstrate under live conditions the old method of kicking.

Not sure it's all about the 'old style kicks'... The original style was more like Shotokan which has a more balanced emphasis on the use of hands and feet, indeed, if I am not mistaken, Tae Kwon means hands and feet...

The problem with Shotokan and TKD sport vs. the original style is that the growth and application used in and by these styles has been for a specialized kind of sport fighting. Much of this sport fighting and change in application came about after the new era in some Japanese systems that happened after WWII. Some call this the Japanification of these combative forms of fighting into sport forms of fighting or in some cases just for exercise in public schools. It is after this time you see the arrival of the "do" systems <way>, as opposed to the Jitsu <combat> systems from which they came.. Some systems noted for having undergone this change are Karate Do, AikiDo and JuDo.. The latter being the gentle system maintained much of the intent of the older forms because many of the moves could be used as is, as they were not that destructive, eg choking/throwing vs. bashing, breaking, maiming/killing... The more destructive forms and methods died out for lack of use, in sport, and in some cases in order to maintain system secrecy.

To this day it is difficult to determine the effectiveness of the original systems, however it has become more known that some of the older masters of these systems withheld much of the true art from the public, even to the point of teaching techniques intentionally incorrectly to public students.

This may help to explain why many of these arts have died or are dying out, in conjunction with other modern factors such as greed/money and to make these arts more palatable for public consumption...

[Knifefighter]

well you need to get out more

Well, I'm apparently not getting out enough and since you are making videos, maybe you could do one where you spar and show these types of kicks.

[Knifefighter]

The problem with Shotokan and TKD sport vs. the original style is that the growth and application used in and by these styles has been for a specialized kind of sport fighting.

In my mind, this argument was put to rest twice. First by Kano's judo vs. jiujutsu challenge matches in the 1800's. The second with the Gracie challenge of the 80's and 90's. Both of these saw sports styles dominating "combat" styles.

I don't think too many people would argue that some of the most effective styles (BJJ, Sambo, wrestling, Muay Thai, Kyoshikin, and boxing) are sports styles.

I would argue that if you want to find make your style as effective as possible, develop a competition aspect to it and make that competition aspect as unrestrictive as possible.

[YungChun]

In my mind, this argument was put to rest twice. First by Kano's judo vs. jiujutsu challenge matches in the 1800's.

The point I made was about a phenomina that occured at the end of WWII.. This proccess and policy is a fact and ALL Japanese arts of war were changed due to this new policy... The intent of this policy was to take the war out of the war arts..

Did you know that old style 'Judo' had striking in it?

I don't think to many people would argue that some of the most effective styles (BJJ, Sambo, wrestling, Muay Thai, Kyoshikin, and boxing) are sports styles.

Yes, however the intent in these sport styles was not to take the martial out of the sport, whereas this WAS the intent in the case of the Japanification of the Japanese styles...eg no contact fighting, etc...Big difference....

You said yourself that folks cannot show the old way.. This is what happened to the old WAY... it went by the WAYside...

[Knifefighter]

Yes, however the intent in these sport styles was not to take the martial out of the sport, whereas this WAS the intent in the case of the Japanification of the Japanese styles...eg no contact fighting, etc...Big difference....

TKD is not Japanese.

[YungChun]

TKD is not Japanese.

The forms are almost identical to the Shotokan forms and the arts underwent similar changes/origens...

[Edmund]

We've all heard that MT has most powerful kicks, but people like Benny Urquidez, Tadashi Nakamura, and even TWC Sifu Keith Mazza have fought them on their own turf and won.

Benny Urquidez has never won in Thailand.

I'd love to see the Thai that Keith Mazza took on. He's not exactly in the weight range of a lot of Thai boxers.

Having said that. People have taken on Thais in Thailand and won many times. Doesn't mean Thais aren't good kickers or that other styles are bad kickers.

I've seen plenty of TKD stylists in MT matches and KICKING is not the problem. They are usually more than adequate in the kicking department.

The forms are almost identical to the Shotokan forms and the arts underwent similar changes/origens...

Correct! General Choi Hong Hi, who created Taekwondo, actually studied and taught Shotokan karate in Japan for a while.

[Hishaam]

TKD is not Japanese.

If you omit the nationalistic revisions of martial history in Korea which is opposed to the slightest japanese influence in that field, TKD's origin is Karate. A light reasearch on the matter and talking to koreans that aren't into nationalistic crap will get you to that conclusion especially if they trained in old style TKD.

Sorry for the thread drift.
Back to lurking....

PS: Props for the "we are idiots thread", and thank you for your thought provoking comments.

[CFT]

The point I made was about a phenomina that occured at the end of WWII.. This proccess and policy is a fact and ALL Japanese arts of war were changed due to this new policy... The intent of this policy was to take the war out of the war arts..

Did you know that old style 'Judo' had striking in it?

I have been reading a bit about judo with a view to getting into it. Some clubs/organizations still train the striking skills (atemi waza) in their forms (kata), but I don't believe strikes are trained in randori (resistive partnered sparring/practice) and used in shiai (competition).

[Lugoman]

The forms are almost identical to the Shotokan forms and the arts underwent similar changes/origens...

The Naihanchi Katas turn up in Tang So Do, almost verbatim.