Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Shaolin Wookie]

Absolutely true.

The numbers and numerology are very important . But to people that do not know this and/or are trying to maintain control or prevent people from understanding the deeper aspects of the arts they will not teach them the importance of this or will just leave it out and basicaly nulify the importance of it.

Really, is it important? What does occult philosophy have to do with the martial art? I guarantee the art preceded the numerology applied to the art. Internal alchemy is a hoax, as is all alchemy, so why is it important? Although I think a kind of buddhist/taoist outlook on life is very important in studying shaolin/taoist arts, I also think GM The' did the right thing by preserving a secular martial art--b/c it's not a religion...it's fighting. If you want to know some background info on the art, or some romantic notion of its cosmic significance, it might be cool to know that stuff. But really, come on. Numerology has nothing to do with warding off a punch and pushing.

[MasterKiller]

Numerology has nothing to do with warding off a punch and pushing.

A lot of the stuff you do in forms is symbolic and not related to fighting at all. If you don't understand that, you don't really understand your kung fu.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I think I might disagree with you on that point. Although I can understand how, for instance, my eyebrow height staff form (Sea-Dragon Cane) is named for the Monkey King's escapades in the Eastern Sea Dragon's underwater kingdom, when he basically acted a **** fool and made a nuisance of himself, that only applies to an understanding of its aesthetic appeal. It won't make me a better martial artist. It'll just make me more aware of its artistry, which isn't really a necessary component of the form, so much as a marker of its cultural heritage. Having read the complete sagas of the Water Margin, Three Kingdoms, and Journey to the West won't make me a more complete martial artist. It just gives me a better picture of chinese literature.

Just like we mentioned a while ago. We have a form called Jingang fu hu chien. I've heard it pronounced a million ways, and seen different translations of it. One of hte Atlanta transliterations was "Wu Song defeats the tiger." Well, WuSong was the Tigerkiller, and he notoriously broke a tiger's neck at a mountain (if I recall correctly) called Jingang. I'll cross-check the WM to verify this. Well, the last movement of hte form, you basically rake across a face, grab the back of a head, and slam it into an upward-driving knee. It kind of paralells the legend of WuSong, but knowing this only makes me more aware of its artistry and heritage.....it has nothing to do with the martial art.

[MasterKiller]

I think I might disagree with you on that point.

You can disagree all you want. But that doesn't make it not true.

[Baqualin]

actually, from a taoist internal alchemical perspective, which is what lies at the heart of tai chi practice even more so than it's supposed efficacy as a martial art, it matters a great deal; that is because the entire form is constructed very specifically based on Taoist cosmology, so the number of brush knees, single whips, etc. are very specific, as are the directions in which they are done (you have to imagine yourself doing the form ontop of a big I Ching hexagram pre-natal diagram; the "point" of it is essentially generation of the Elixir of Immortality (Golden Pill; the "dan", etc.) as the end result;

so for example, the first five brush knees (and this is a "family secret" so to speak) are each done slightly differently, because each one is representitive of one of the 5 phases / elements; doing all five, you are generating a specific "build up" of energies, which are then culminated and transformed at the end of the first chapter by the "downward parry punch" move (another reasn why what happens with the hands is of significane); likewise, the number of "dan bin" is important, because this movement is actually considered one of if not the most important in terms of internal alchemical practice (if, of course, you choose to believe in this sort of thing... ); in fact, the translation of "dan bin" as single whip is only one of several possible ones: "dan bin" can also be translated as "transforming the elixir" (literally, "cinnabar transformation" - cinnabar being a precursor to mercury, which, due to it's observed properties, the Taoists associated with immortality - of course, some took this literally, ingsted the stuff and ended up joining the ranks of immortals a bit more directly then pehaps they had wished for...), which is why its placement in the form is importan; actually, I believe that my teacher, Master Sat Hon, will ave an article discussing the "lost roots" of tai chi (it's alchemical transformative function) in an upcoming issue of Asian Journal of Martial Arts where he discusses all this in much greater detail

so anyway, yeah, the numbers do matter...or not...

Could you let us know when the article comes out & how to get a copy (hopefully in english). It would be greatly appreaciated
BQ

[Baqualin]

actually, from a taoist internal alchemical perspective, which is what lies at the heart of tai chi practice even more so than it's supposed efficacy as a martial art, it matters a great deal; that is because the entire form is constructed very specifically based on Taoist cosmology, so the number of brush knees, single whips, etc. are very specific, as are the directions in which they are done (you have to imagine yourself doing the form ontop of a big I Ching hexagram pre-natal diagram; the "point" of it is essentially generation of the Elixir of Immortality (Golden Pill; the "dan", etc.) as the end result;

so for example, the first five brush knees (and this is a "family secret" so to speak) are each done slightly differently, because each one is representitive of one of the 5 phases / elements; doing all five, you are generating a specific "build up" of energies, which are then culminated and transformed at the end of the first chapter by the "downward parry punch" move (another reasn why what happens with the hands is of significane); likewise, the number of "dan bin" is important, because this movement is actually considered one of if not the most important in terms of internal alchemical practice (if, of course, you choose to believe in this sort of thing... ); in fact, the translation of "dan bin" as single whip is only one of several possible ones: "dan bin" can also be translated as "transforming the elixir" (literally, "cinnabar transformation" - cinnabar being a precursor to mercury, which, due to it's observed properties, the Taoists associated with immortality - of course, some took this literally, ingsted the stuff and ended up joining the ranks of immortals a bit more directly then pehaps they had wished for...), which is why its placement in the form is importan; actually, I believe that my teacher, Master Sat Hon, will ave an article discussing the "lost roots" of tai chi (it's alchemical transformative function) in an upcoming issue of Asian Journal of Martial Arts where he discusses all this in much greater detail

so anyway, yeah, the numbers do matter...or not...

cjurakpt,
I'm a little confused here.....a few post back you seemed to dislike training with forms and now your breaking down the Yang form to it's raw roots in a very knowledgeable way....what gives
BQ

[tattooedmonk]

Really, is it important? What does occult philosophy have to do with the martial art? I guarantee the art preceded the numerology applied to the art. Internal alchemy is a hoax, as is all alchemy, so why is it important? Although I think a kind of buddhist/taoist outlook on life is very important in studying shaolin/taoist arts, I also think GM The' did the right thing by preserving a secular martial art--b/c it's not a religion...it's fighting. If you want to know some background info on the art, or some romantic notion of its cosmic significance, it might be cool to know that stuff. But really, come on. Numerology has nothing to do with warding off a punch and pushing.

Yes it is . Doing certain patterns in a specific way, in a set numbers of times helps to recalibrate and regulate energy (Qi) and aligns the structural system ( kinetic chain). Not failing to mention opening the gateways of the mind through properly distributing chemicals through the endocrine system, Etc.

The arts are based on theses philosopical systems which were ingrained in Chinese culture , They are symbiotic in nature . You can not have one without the other ( yin yang principle).

I could get really deep and involved in this conversation but I have limited time right now.

And another thing we are not talking about religion we are talking about philosophy, physics , psychology.

This is one of the problems with the system, it has been divorced from the philosophy in addition to the religion .

If the philosophies ( Taoism, Buddhism , Confucianism , Shamanism, Hinduism) was taught and practiced then there would not be all the politics , desention in the ranks, back stabing, etc. Everymaster/ teacher has their own philosophy, and has developed large egos which have no place in what we do.

These philosophies are the foundation of the art and without a foundation the structure is unstable.

The philosophy makes the religion not the other way around.

I understand removing the religious aspects but the arts are based in the philosophies.

Sorry but the philosophies predate any of the formalized material that we practice.

Saying that numerology has nothing to do with it, is like saying that mathmatics has nothing to do with physics and the order of the universe.

You really do not believe in alchemy??

[tattooedmonk]

A lot of the stuff you do in forms is symbolic and not related to fighting at all. If you don't understand that, you don't really understand your kung fu.

Very TRUE!!

[cjurakpt]

i dont know?

might be interesting to find out...

here is cheng man ching. what we do is similar in many ways.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=USJPmCZ6Efc

I would say that your form looks more like Cheng's version of the Yang form than anything else, especially in terms of the way the moves are done / the quality of the moves; of course, that would seem illogical given the supposed origin of all forms in SD coming from Sin The and his teacher directly to him...

certain techniques are omitted and/ or there are variations in the forms because of what the application is through specific ranges of motions.


The Yang style Tai Ji Quan that we do is most commonly called the "Temple Style" it has only been in recent years that it is refered to as "Classical."
I believe it is a "colorful " word used to add credibility to the form.

yeah, the Yang TC form is about as "temple" as my dog; the "classical" nomiker is likewise to make it sound more "genteel", or give it some gravitas

Absolutely true.
The numbers and numerology are very important . But to people that do not know this and/or are trying to maintain control or prevent people from understanding the deeper aspects of the arts they will not teach them the importance of this or will just leave it out and basicaly nulify the importance of it.

well, they may or may not be - in other words, they are important in the sense that when the form was "created" they were put in there for specific reasons; they are unimportant in the sense that if you don't buy the initial premise, it doresn't really matter...

Well then, wouldn't you agree that from a Daoist perspective, the "someone who practices fighting skills based purely on live interraction and constant pressure testing" is missing thei point in practcing by always focusing on the efficacy--the "trying to make it happen" and their skills albeit formidible in the short term, are "shallow" from a Daoist perspective.
And I think our disagreement is rooted in the fact that most people on this meandering road do not also drill effectively and agasint live resistance while taking their time to discover themselves and the art through their forms practice. To that end, they get lost on this road and never reach the end goal of aesthetics, self-awareness, betterment and true martial ability.

this is a great question overall - it boils down to "why train?"; for example, you could argue that engagn in training based on conflict is "against" the Dao; on the other hand, you could argue that ALL things are ultimately Dao, so that conflict, being part of Dao is not against it, or that even that, in essence, there is no such thing as conflict even being possible! personally, I think that things take care of themselves: people whos lot it is in life is to fight become adept at it without really trying - e.g. the successful "street fighter" with no formal training; for most people, it's training to slay dragons (most MA students never "need" what they train); I guess I can say that I know what it means for me personally, and I;ll leave the rest up to others

Really, is it important? What does occult philosophy have to do with the martial art? I guarantee the art preceded the numerology applied to the art. Internal alchemy is a hoax, as is all alchemy, so why is it important? Although I think a kind of buddhist/taoist outlook on life is very important in studying shaolin/taoist arts, I also think GM The' did the right thing by preserving a secular martial art--b/c it's not a religion...it's fighting. If you want to know some background info on the art, or some romantic notion of its cosmic significance, it might be cool to know that stuff. But really, come on. Numerology has nothing to do with warding off a punch and pushing.

Taoist alchemy has a lot of hoo doo voo doo stuff, but there is also something to be said for the pratice in terms of increasing awareness of one's self in terms of how one engages in habitual action unconsciously (there are many ays to discover this, not just alchemical practice); as far as honing fighting skill per se, no, it's meaningless -

I think I might disagree with you on that point. Although I can understand how, for instance, my eyebrow height staff form (Sea-Dragon Cane) is named for the Monkey King's escapades in the Eastern Sea Dragon's underwater kingdom, when he basically acted a **** fool and made a nuisance of himself, that only applies to an understanding of its aesthetic appeal. It won't make me a better martial artist. It'll just make me more aware of its artistry, which isn't really a necessary component of the form, so much as a marker of its cultural heritage. Having read the complete sagas of the Water Margin, Three Kingdoms, and Journey to the West won't make me a more complete martial artist. It just gives me a better picture of chinese literature.

Just like we mentioned a while ago. We have a form called Jingang fu hu chien. I've heard it pronounced a million ways, and seen different translations of it. One of hte Atlanta transliterations was "Wu Song defeats the tiger." Well, WuSong was the Tigerkiller, and he notoriously broke a tiger's neck at a mountain (if I recall correctly) called Jingang. I'll cross-check the WM to verify this. Well, the last movement of hte form, you basically rake across a face, grab the back of a head, and slam it into an upward-driving knee. It kind of paralells the legend of WuSong, but knowing this only makes me more aware of its artistry and heritage.....it has nothing to do with the martial art.

a lot of this was inserted by Chinese teachers who wanted what they taught to appear more scholarly - basically, if you were a soldier/mercenary/anyone who fought "professionally", you wereconsidered worse than a sewer cleaner in Chinese culture, so if you want to clean up your act, you adopt the "scholar warrior" posture and reframe your fighting knowledge as an art of self-cultivation...

Could you let us know when the article comes out & how to get a copy (hopefully in english). It would be greatly appreaciated
BQ

just look at JAMA when it comes out and you will see if it's in there; although I will probably post an announcement when it comes out

cjurakpt,
I'm a little confused here.....a few post back you seemed to dislike training with forms and now your breaking down the Yang form to it's raw roots in a very knowledgeable way....what gives
BQ

it's simple really: forms for building fighting skill are a waste of time; forms done as a means of participating in a symbolic transformational process are a different story - they become akin to shammanic ritual, which, if you choose to believe in that sort of thing, requires an in-depth understanding of what you are doing and why you are doing it

[brucereiter]

I would say that your form looks more like Cheng's version of the Yang form than anything else, especially in terms of the way the moves are done / the quality of the moves;

i think it is similar ... but there are several differences ...

of course, that would seem illogical given the supposed origin of all forms in SD coming from Sin The and his teacher directly to him...

that style of yang tai chi chuan is very popular in s.e. Asia. i have no way of knowing from first hand experience ... it is possible the form was learned by gms in indonisia it could have also been learned by ie chang ming in china or in indonisia. i am only adding speculation since i do not know.

[Toby]

ok ... even though you do not formally learn any style of tai chi chuan thanks for commenting.

To put my comments in perspective, I learn hsing i from a guy who's done a lot of tai chi and bagua but mostly hsing i over ~20 years, and his teacher has studied internal arts for most of his ~70 years. I get snippets of tai chi at times but don't know any forms. We do a lot of tai chi mechanics for example, which is why I was commenting on structure. I don't know the moves and sequences in the forms but I do know a little about structure.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Yes it is . Doing certain patterns in a specific way, in a set numbers of times helps to recalibrate and regulate energy (Qi) and aligns the structural system ( kinetic chain). Not failing to mention opening the gateways of the mind through properly distributing chemicals through the endocrine system, Etc.

The arts are based on theses philosopical systems which were ingrained in Chinese culture , They are symbiotic in nature . You can not have one without the other ( yin yang principle).

I could get really deep and involved in this conversation but I have limited time right now.

And another thing we are not talking about religion we are talking about philosophy, physics , psychology.

This is one of the problems with the system, it has been divorced from the philosophy in addition to the religion .

If the philosophies ( Taoism, Buddhism , Confucianism , Shamanism, Hinduism) was taught and practiced then there would not be all the politics , desention in the ranks, back stabing, etc. Everymaster/ teacher has their own philosophy, and has developed large egos which have no place in what we do.

These philosophies are the foundation of the art and without a foundation the structure is unstable.

The philosophy makes the religion not the other way around.

I understand removing the religious aspects but the arts are based in the philosophies.

Sorry but the philosophies predate any of the formalized material that we practice.

Saying that numerology has nothing to do with it, is like saying that mathmatics has nothing to do with physics and the order of the universe.

You really do not believe in alchemy??

Alchemy is ridiculous in every culture it has popped up in. It's pseudoscience (science hijacked by schizophrenics). If you apply it to tai chi or something, you have to apply it to everything. Hence, you must brush the crumbs off your pants five times, even though one swipe would have sufficed to clean the mess. If you're driving your car and you make a right turn, you'd better **** well turn that wheel five times fully and make five complete circles, because if you don't, you'll throw off your delicate internal chemical balances. You don't cook chemicals in your veins, or control the functions of your liver with breathing techniques, or do irreparable damage to your kidneys by having bad coordination during your single whip movements. You ward off and push to ward off a punch and push.

Sure, the alchemy predated Tai Chi, but I guaran****tee that it had precisely dick to do with the structural formulation of the art. I'm sure someone very invested in the alchemical society imposed upon the art his alchemical prejudices to make it more personalized. But come on.....you show me a chemical formula that delineates how the body should move during tai chi, which prescribes motions like ward offs, etc by the various movings and interminglings of hydrogens and carbons, and maybe I'll change my mind. Does hemoglobin react differently to four ward offs as opposed to five? And during which part of the fifth ward off does the hemoglobin begin to realize that something significant has happened?

Mathematics has nothing to do with the order (?....ever hear of entropy?) of the universe. The universe works a certain way, but often doesn't work that way upon further analysis (I've always preferred Wheeler's description of a "higgledy-piggeldy" universe). You can describe it with mathematics (always fractionally imprecise--take Newton's gravitational principles and Einstein's observations of MErcury). You can describe ti with language. But mathematics is a languange man uses to describe numeric things---all of which are notions exclusive to man. Pythagoras was a wizard with numbers. But he was also a fool who believed numbers had a mystical, divine significance. His findings actually contradict TAoist numerology. So how does one prove which is correct? Pythagoras or Taoist numerology? Can you prove these things? Of course not? So how do you prove which is correct, when you have two unprovable, contradictory things?

Considering the applicablity of Pythagoras's mathematical findings, I'm sorry to inform you that he's far more relevant to today's society than any Taoist sect's numerological nonsense. Hell, I even like his philosophy better.

But I still regard him with mild amusement at his expense.

[Leto]

alchemy, especially in this sense, is a term used to describe tansformation. "Internal alchemy" describes the kind of transformation that occurs in your body and mind through practices like meditation and qigong, which is a part of martial arts. Whatever terminology is used to describe it, be it western like "biochemical" or "psychosomatic" or "bio energetic", or eastern like "qi" or "five elements" or "tonifying organs"...something is happening, transforming in you, through sincere practice of these methods. Numerology is a way of focusing intent, like all ritual designed to lead the cosciousness somewhere. The myth of alchemy, turning lead into gold, is a metaphor.
En"livening" and En"lightening" your Being.
If all you do is fighting, that's fine. Just ignore the spiritual aspects that present themselves to you. But it's always there if there is a turning around in your heart and mind someday.

[Shaolin Wookie]

alchemy, especially in this sense, is a term used to describe tansformation. "Internal alchemy" describes the kind of transformation that occurs in your body and mind through practices like meditation and qigong, which is a part of martial arts. Whatever terminology is used to describe it, be it western like "biochemical" or "psychosomatic" or "bio energetic", or eastern like "qi" or "five elements" or "tonifying organs"...something is happening, transforming in you, through sincere practice of these methods. Numerology is a way of focusing intent, like all ritual designed to lead the cosciousness somewhere. The myth of alchemy, turning lead into gold, is a metaphor.
En"livening" and En"lightening" your Being.
If all you do is fighting, that's fine. Just ignore the spiritual aspects that present themselves to you. But it's always there if there is a turning around in your heart and mind someday.

Although my philosophical thoughts are mirrored by Taoist philosophy, I have a very Stoic attitude towards things, and , I hearken more to Western virtues---pride (putting all effort into an endeavor, as it represents what you are), perserverence, humilty, hard work, and self-reliance.

You're describing a "toned-down" or "moderate" approach to the issue. "Numerology is a way of focusing intent"---I understand what you mean. But if that's the case, numerology is in fact irrelevant. One could just as easily "count sheep as a way of focusing intent".

BTW, the lead into gold wasn't just a metaphor. Some very brilliant people in Western society, great mathematicians and physicists, spent a lot of time attempting the transformation, and only wound up with a ****load of warped lead for their endeavors.

[Leto]

Although my philosophical thoughts are mirrored by Taoist philosophy, I have a very Stoic attitude towards things, and , I hearken more to Western virtues---pride (putting all effort into an endeavor, as it represents what you are), perserverence, humilty, hard work, and self-reliance.

You're describing a "toned-down" or "moderate" approach to the issue. "Numerology is a way of focusing intent"---I understand what you mean. But if that's the case, numerology is in fact irrelevant. One could just as easily "count sheep as a way of focusing intent".

BTW, the lead into gold wasn't just a metaphor. Some very brilliant people in Western society, great mathematicians and physicists, spent a lot of time attempting the transformation, and only wound up with a ****load of warped lead for their endeavors.

The further you go, the more everything is irrelevant. But people have to start somewhere. In order for symbolism to work, it has to have meaning for you. Counting sheep as you jog down the street could be a useful spiritual tool if this had some sort of significance to you, but most likely it doesn't. When everything you do, every single action and thought and word is focused ...that's where transformation occurs, "alchemy". This is the benefit of a life of devotion, such as that of a monk or hermit. The more harmony in your life and actions, the greater the benefit.