CLF Sparring

[stout]

Was CLF ever designed for the ground? As far as I know, the emphasis is to take your opponent out before it ever has to go to ground. So what would be a ground fight CLF technique?

I think MMA folks who can ground fight might have better advantage, as they are determined and are willing to take a beating, to take you to the ground. It seem to take alot of skill to stay off the ground. Do you think in a MMA comp it's difficult not to get pulled to the ground, as the rules does not permit you to go all out and hit soft spots. The Cung le vs Tony Frylund MMA fight is only one I have seen, where the fight stayed off the ground.

[Ben Gash]

Hitting soft spots is not really that effective in fights against trained, conditioned fighters. They're pretty good at protecting their soft spots. There are issues about the gloves, but the safety advantages are obvious.
Ask yourself this: Who's more likely to win? Someone who's excellent standing up, middling in the clinch and with no ground skills (your average Kung Fu guy) or someone who's excellent on the ground, good in the clinch with middling standup (your average MMA fighter)? If you are weak in one range ultimately you'll be weak in all, because an opponent who's got all the ranges covered can exploit that weakness to counter the rest of your game.
Sow Choy explained what he meant, they do groundwork and apply CLF principles to it.
I think San Shou's future lies in Pro Sanda. I think the IWuF format is pretty lame and fairly boring to watch. Take away the body protectors and the shin pads and you've got a much more meaningful competition, and no fighter really likes headguards. However, as with Sow Choy I have to think that the future for my San Shou guys may well have to be in MMA. There's only 2 major San Shou events a year here, and they're nationals. There's only one real second tier event in the country. This makes it difficult for my students to gain the necessary experience before they do nationals, and makes it virtually impossible to get them to the level they'd need to be at for internationals. I'm hoping to put some guys in for some WKA low kick fights next year, and maybe move them up to amateur Thai, but they're only using half their skillset.
Compared to San Shou, one amateur MMA group such as Grapple n Strike can have as many as 6 events a year! All my student's skills can be utilised, I just need to add in a ground element to their training. Ironically I thinik the only way they can succeed as San Shou fighters in England is by doing MMA

[Sow Choy]

Ben,

I hear you on San Shou, not much around here either... And if there is, how much to enter? How much to fly there? How much for the hotel? Kind of crazy to pay all that money to have someone try to kick your head off your shoulders no? Haha!

Plus as a full-time teacher, I understand the importance of promoting Tournaments and competition, but hell my students can barely afford their tuition and we are probably one of the cheapest in town...

Stout...

CLF has some pretty decent chin na, more practical... But definitely no groundwork, at least from my experience... but who knows...maybe they will find a secret scroll soon saying we actually have a ground form... Haha!

I am doing what I believe many in the past have done, maybe even what some of the old school kung fu people did, which is find people who are good at fighting and who enjoy exchange... I have a buddy from my high school days who has been into Brazilian Jujitsu for 10 years or so... He is pretty awesome... And he has brought many people over from his school as well as others we have met at cage fights...

Also some friends in Ft Meyers who are great at Wrestling, Thai Boxing and ground and pound come around too to train and share... But again, whenever possible we look at the similarities in our arts and how to blend or be unorthodox... Basically How to WIN... Rather than care if its Chinese or whatever...

But in the end I think traditional martial arts have much more of a famliy mentality than some MMA... So who knows how long the fad will last... I am just happy to have been able to be a student again and really see how much of a beginner I truly am...

The whole debate on which is better striking or grappling is a waste of time... It depends on who is better and lucky... If you havent tried ground, I suggest giving it shot... I was amazed how fast I was submitted... Now I am much more comfortable on the ground, but still along way from where I wanna be...

I guess my point still is to think about the fight and what you can use... Rather than the style... But as a striking style I believe CLF has all the tools, just make sure to try diff stradegies and pay close attention to the people who are actually sucessfull in fighting...

Peace : )

Joe

[jdhowland]

[QUOTE=stout;790844]Was CLF ever designed for the ground? As far as I know, the emphasis is to take your opponent out before it ever has to go to ground. So what would be a ground fight CLF technique?

My teacher is the nephew of Tse Wing Bun, a famous Hong Kong CLF master known to teach groundfighting. I have an old magazine article about his ground kam na techniques. The pictures show takedowns and counterstrikes after falling or tumbling but no mounting or hand grappling. Wing Bun was also a teacher of Eagle Claw and I suspect that Fan Tzu, rather than CLF was the source of these techniques.

I don't believe CLF has jujitsu-type ground submission training built into the system. What it does have is strategic tumbling and lock-throw-pin techniques designed to keep the operator on his feet, no matter how low the body, e.g. gwai mah and fuk fuh positions.

[Eddie]

San Shou doesnt seem to be goin anywhere... So we have had a few students go in the cage and we hope to send more...

I’d hate to disagree with you sir, you know that, but I think theres a pretty good future for san da (san shou whatever you wanna call it).

As a sport, its far more spectator friendly than most MMA, mostly because of the stand up fighting.

I’ve seen what the IWuF is doing with san shou, and I like the way it seems to be going.
There will always be a place for stand up arts such as thaiboxing and san shou to compete. Down here people seem to really enjoy that type of thing, and our san shou classes are often bigger than our ‘traditional’ classes.

But having said all that, Im not dismissing the importance of MMA and ground fighting. If anything, I think its probably one of the more important skills to develop. I also think your location and surrounding culture has allot of influence with this. For eg, down here, we weren’t so big on wrestling when we grew up (in apose to places like say America). Less emphasis was put on it back in the day, but it seems to have made it through eventually.

I enjoy san shou, and think CLF works extremely well in accordance to the IWuF san shou rules and point system. Other styles do too.

[stout]

Ground fighting is really more for sports though. In a real fight, would anyone want to fight on the ground as choice? Unless you are fighting for your life? I would love to see a CLF fighter in a MMA event, those gloves must be better for technique.

As for san da, for those who fights "peen sun" or side body, do you find that your are more prone to be thrown by someone whos good at thowing?

[Ben Gash]

Unless you are fighting for your life?

Why else would you be fighting?