So here is an interesting question for some of the people on this board

[TenTigers]

No it isn't, because MMA refers to a mix of RANGES, not styles.

Really? So Muay Thai,Boxing,BJJ,etc are not styles? Yes it is a mix of ranges, but they draw from other styles in order to develop these abilities. Kung-Fu does the same thing. Shuai-Jiao, Chin-Na, striking, kicking,etc. I train with a group who do all this, and we bring in others from all styles, backrounds,etc. Tools is tools.
When you stop trying to put everything in a box, you can see this.
It's not that TCMA does this or does that, it's that people do this and do that.

[MasterKiller]

This is exactly why Kung fu done right is an MMA. One style, and if that style hasn't been wimpified, a mix of ranges: High, low, ground, submissions of all types. The biggest diffrence is the good kung fu peeps don't cross train to make sure thier stuff still works on others. Doesn't meen it's not an MMA, just not an open one.

Kung Fu has never trained to fight against wrestlers or submission specialists because of the cultural context in which it was created.

Good kung fu NOW must include those elements. You can't say it's always been there because it hasn't, so the lack of outside testing is not the only problem.

[MasterKiller]

Really? So Muay Thai,Boxing,BJJ,etc are not styles?

Yes, they are styles. But you don't need anyone of them in particular. The styles you use are not the defining and mitigating factor, it's the mixed-range training that defines MMA.

Muay Thai + Boxing is not MMA.

Sambo + BJJ is not MMA.

Long Fist + Baji is not MMA.

Kung-Fu does the same thing. Shuai-Jiao, Chin-Na, striking, kicking,etc. I train with a group who do all this, and we bring in others from all styles, backrounds,etc. Tools is tools.

So which CMA style are you training to handle ground fighting?

Not Shaui-Jaio, because it prefers to stand over a downed opponent.

Not Chin-Na, because Chin-Na does not focus on transitions or positional escapes on the ground.

So what is it...?

[Becca]

Kung Fu has never trained to fight against wrestlers or submission specialists because of the cultural context in which it was created.

Good kung fu NOW must include those elements. You can't say it's always been there because it hasn't, so the lack of outside testing is not the only problem.

BS. Pure BS. Kung fu started out as a true art of war. They wared quite a bit with Japan, the home of jujitsu. Yet those who practiced and handed down kung fu never trained to fight against their worst enemies hand-to-hand fighting style?

Good kung fu does include those elements and always has. You seem to be stubornly clinging to the idea that the cr@p you have seem must be the good stuff.

[lkfmdc]

BS. Pure BS. Kung fu started out as a true art of war. They wared quite a bit with Japan, the home of Ninjitsu.

and, as we know, thanks to the internet, ninjas defeated the best kung fu had to offer, ie the Shaolin monks......

[sanjuro_ronin]

Those wacky ninjas !

[MasterKiller]

BS. Pure BS. Kung fu started out as a true art of war. They wared quite a bit with Japan, the home of jujitsu. Yet those who practiced and handed down kung fu never trained to fight against their worst enemies hand-to-hand fighting style?

Battlefield training and fighting strategically focuses on weapons. Always has.

Hand to hand training is mostly used in a military context to train aggression into it's soldiers.

Good kung fu does include those elements and always has. You seem to be stubornly clinging to the idea that the cr@p you have seem must be the good stuff.

I seriously doubt you could show me anything I haven't seen already.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Due to the nature of the battlefield at the time, TMA of the military version hat focused on H2H combat would be more grappling oriented and with small edged weapons to get at the weak spots of the armour.

kumi Uchi in the Koryu systems of Japan, later called jujutsu is an example.

[TenTigers]

Although the prefrence is to stand over the attacker, there are Shuai-Jiao teachers who teach ground grappling, but from the little I've seen, it's more like silat-not so much rolling as it is finishing and getting up.Shuai-Jiao is as varied in approach as the individual teaching it. Some are only for sport, others only for combat, some in between. We bring in people from everywhere (kodokan judo,bjj,greco-roman,shuai-jiao,silat,nhb fighters,etc) and form a sort of lab,what works aginst what,how can this be added, modified,etc.
since judo was developed from shuai-jiao, and bjj ground fighting was developed from ne-waza, don't you think there would be this in shuai-jiao as well? I will ask around. I don't have the experience. There are those who know a heckuva lot more about sj and bjj.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It pays to remember that the ground work of sport is NOT the ground work of the combat fields of times past.

The focus of ground work in the grappling arts of China and Japan would have been to finish it quickly and decisively, usually with some small edged weapon.

If one was to institute a time limit to ground work in MMA, for example 45 seconds, then it would look quite different than it does now.

[MasterKiller]

Although the prefrence is to stand over the attacker, there are Shuai-Jiao teachers who teach ground grappling, but it's more like silat-not so much rolling as it is finishing and getting up.

That's pretty much the way all CMA ground fighting is configured.

Which means they did not train with the mindset of staying on the ground, or fighting against people who wanted to stay on the ground.

I will ask around.

If you have to ask, it means it's not there when you train it. Just because someone, somewhere, might teach it that way doesn't do you any good at the moment, does it?

[TenTigers]

"That's pretty much the way all CMA ground fighting is configured."

I wouldn't know. I haven't seen ALL CMA groundfighting.
I've only been exposed to a small amount, so I don't have the knowledge nor the experience to answer that question. But as I said, I will ask around.

[MasterKiller]

I've only been exposed to a small amount, so I don't have the knowledge nor the experience to answer that question.

If you've been doing kung fu for as long as you say you have, and you haven't seen it, the answer is self-evident.

All those generations of cross-training didn't put it into your system....what makes you think other CMA styles are any different?

[Becca]

and, as we know, thanks to the internet, ninjas defeated the best kung fu had to offer, ie the Shaolin monks......

Nice... too bad it's obvious you changed my quote...

[Iron_Eagle_76]

.[/QUOTE]
since judo was developed from shuai-jiao


How accurate is this statement, because I have heard different things from both sides on this issue. Since many believe mongolian wrestling came from Greco-Roman wrestling and Pankration. I am asking to anyone who knows, because I don't. Was it the chicken or the egg, ****it!!!